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Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:41 AM

STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE DOCTORS OFFICE!!!!!!!!!!!



The Plan to Muzzle Doctors Over Guns
By Adam Weinstein| Thu Aug. 2, 2012 3:00 AM PDT



Less than a month before Florida hosts the Republican National Convention, the state's right-wing governor is pushing for an unusual law that privileges the Second Amendment over the First Amendment. Gov. Rick Scott announced Monday that his administration will pursue a court appeal to defend the state's controversial "Docs vs. Glocks" law, which makes it a crime for doctors to ask patients if they own guns.


The 2011 "Firearm Owners' Privacy Act"—one of a series of NRA-backed, aggressive pro-gun laws passed by Florida's conservative Legislature in recent years—aims at keeping physicians from gathering information on patients' weapons while discussing their health risk factors. (Decades of studies have shown that even law-abiding, responsible gun owners and their families have higher risks of death by gunshot when they keep a firearm in the home.)

"Patients don't like being interrogated about whether or not they own guns when they take their child with a sore throat to a pediatrician, nor do they like being interrogated in an emergency room when their Little Leaguer broke his leg sliding into first base," the NRA's gun for hire in Florida, longtime firearms lobbyist Marion Hammer, told the Tampa Bay Times last fall.

Doctors have long been permitted to ask patients about other risk factors, like smoking and drinking (and patients, of course, have long had the freedom to lie about their bad habits). But asking about guns is different, say backers of the law, which could cost offending doctors their medical licenses and a $10,000 fine. Some even argue that federal power makes the law especially important. "Now we've got Obamacare, the government owns our health care," a 58-year-old Floridian told Sunshine State News. "They can coerce the names and habits of gun owners out of doctors' medical records, that's what scares me most. Maybe it won't happen today or tomorrow, but the ability to do it is there."

Apparently, you sometimes have to destroy the Constitution in order to save it. A federal judge tossed the "Docs vs. Glocks" law out of her district court last September, ruling that it trampled doctors' right to free speech. The law, Judge Marcia Cooke wrote, "aims to restrict a practitioner's ability to provide truthful, non-misleading information to a patient"—information that she said "simply does not interfere with the right to keep and bear arms."

The governor disagrees. "This law was carefully crafted to respect the First Amendment while ensuring a patient's constitutional right to own or possess a firearm without discrimination," Scott said in his statement. "I signed this legislation into law because I believe it is constitutional and I will continue to defend it."


How far is Scott willing to go to protect the law? Far enough to spend a big chunk of public money on legal challenges. A report in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel shows that the same tea party governor who trumpets fiscal conservatism has spent north of $880,000 in taxpayer money so far to wage mostly unsuccessful court battles for the conservative agenda—including Docs vs. Glocks, voter suppression measures, drug tests for welfare recipients, prison privatization plans, and the Supreme Court challenge to Obamacare.

That approach defies sense, Dr. Bernd Wollschlaeger, a Miami doctor fighting the Docs vs. Glocks law, told McClatchy last month. "My fear is the state will appeal and keeping wasting money to fight windmills," he said. "This is an ideologically driven, politically motivated vendetta by the NRA that has to stop."

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/07/rick-scott-docs-vs-glocks



I hate my state, I hate my state...did I mention I hate my god damn state?

117 replies, 13844 views

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Reply STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE DOCTORS OFFICE!!!!!!!!!!! (Original post)
lilithsrevenge12 Aug 2012 OP
byeya Aug 2012 #1
nanabugg Aug 2012 #56
bemildred Aug 2012 #2
onehandle Aug 2012 #19
dixiegrrrrl Aug 2012 #89
mysuzuki2 Aug 2012 #3
DLine Aug 2012 #4
Scuba Aug 2012 #8
DLine Aug 2012 #10
Scuba Aug 2012 #12
whistler162 Aug 2012 #32
Paladin Aug 2012 #58
Mojorabbit Aug 2012 #92
Posteritatis Aug 2012 #17
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #11
loyalsister Aug 2012 #25
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #27
loyalsister Aug 2012 #48
Patiod Aug 2012 #41
loyalsister Aug 2012 #54
MicaelS Aug 2012 #62
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #66
dionysus Aug 2012 #76
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #87
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #14
X_Digger Aug 2012 #23
Patiod Aug 2012 #40
aikoaiko Aug 2012 #73
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #46
Marrah_G Aug 2012 #59
PavePusher Aug 2012 #106
Hugabear Aug 2012 #74
progressivebydesign Aug 2012 #82
Hippo_Tron Aug 2012 #104
HappyMe Aug 2012 #5
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #15
HappyMe Aug 2012 #18
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #33
HappyMe Aug 2012 #35
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #38
HappyMe Aug 2012 #42
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #49
X_Digger Aug 2012 #51
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #61
X_Digger Aug 2012 #64
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #65
X_Digger Aug 2012 #68
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #71
X_Digger Aug 2012 #77
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #79
X_Digger Aug 2012 #81
friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #91
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #93
kctim Aug 2012 #6
Patiod Aug 2012 #43
kctim Aug 2012 #69
PavePusher Aug 2012 #108
Turbineguy Aug 2012 #7
Bertha Venation Aug 2012 #9
FloridaJudy Aug 2012 #29
hobbit709 Aug 2012 #13
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #16
greytdemocrat Aug 2012 #37
twizzler Aug 2012 #50
friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #85
PavePusher Aug 2012 #109
hobbit709 Aug 2012 #110
PavePusher Aug 2012 #111
hobbit709 Aug 2012 #112
PavePusher Aug 2012 #115
eShirl Aug 2012 #20
X_Digger Aug 2012 #24
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #31
X_Digger Aug 2012 #36
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #52
X_Digger Aug 2012 #57
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #60
X_Digger Aug 2012 #63
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #78
X_Digger Aug 2012 #80
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #90
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #95
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #96
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #97
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #98
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #99
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #100
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #101
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #102
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #103
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #105
Fumesucker Aug 2012 #107
JHB Aug 2012 #21
FloridaJudy Aug 2012 #22
Patiod Aug 2012 #44
xmas74 Aug 2012 #53
hifiguy Aug 2012 #26
jillan Aug 2012 #28
xchrom Aug 2012 #30
HockeyMom Aug 2012 #34
B Calm Aug 2012 #39
xmas74 Aug 2012 #45
midnight Aug 2012 #47
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #67
Lucy Goosey Aug 2012 #72
Patiod Aug 2012 #94
Daemonaquila Aug 2012 #55
aikoaiko Aug 2012 #70
Hugabear Aug 2012 #75
progressivebydesign Aug 2012 #83
Bake Aug 2012 #84
Lizzie Poppet Aug 2012 #86
GOTV Aug 2012 #88
FloridaJudy Aug 2012 #113
GOTV Aug 2012 #114
WCIL Aug 2012 #116
sibelian Aug 2012 #117

Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:46 AM

1. If it's any consolation, Florida is a daily reminder of what will befall the USA if the RepubliKKKan

 

Party sweeps the House, Senate, and Presidency. I don't think a majority likes what's going on.
Very sorry you have to be the victim at ground central of the Wingnutosphere.

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Response to byeya (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:05 PM

56. Doctor- patient privacy? Doc can ask, you don't have to answer. What if you are mentally

 

unstable and doc asks what kind of drugs do you have at home? Why can't he ask if you own guns? You never have answer any question that you are asked...even in court. So what's all the whining about? Now whose telling the doctors how to treat their patients?

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:47 AM

2. Global warming will fix it soon ... nt

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Response to bemildred (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:18 PM

19. Florida. A thin layer of swiss cheese floating on a ocean soaked swamp.

Bye-bye.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:46 PM

89. if Fukishima does not do it first.

Seriously.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:52 AM

3. Clearly unconstitutional

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:52 AM

4. This may be where everybody starts to hate me...

But I don't see the point in my doctor asking me if I own guns. Do I smoke, drink heavily, or eat a lot of fried food is one thing. I see the long term medical issues that can arise from that differently than I do an injury that may or may not happen from an activity. To me it would be up there with asking outside of casual conversation if I like to rock climb or ride motorcycles. What does it matter unless Im in here with a broken leg?

With that said, I don't see the point in making a law that says its illegal for a doctor to ask that if he wants to. If any gun nuts doctor asked them that for a medical reason they would probably stop going to them.

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:59 AM

8. What about the slippery slope argument? Aren't you afraid you'll be prevented from asking...

... questions of others? Should the tavern owner be prevented from asking if a customer is carrying?

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Response to Scuba (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:03 PM

10. I edited the post...

I wanted to reflect that even though I don't see the point in a doctor asking if I own guns, I don't believe there should be a law preventing it.

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Response to DLine (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:06 PM

12. Fair enough, though I'll point out that having a firearm is a health risk and physician...

... may want to suggest you keep it secure, especially if he/she knows you have children.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:43 PM

32. Having a pencil is a health risk.

having a bathtun is a health risk.

heck, life is a health risk and life is guaranteed to kill you eventually.

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #32)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:18 PM

58. Get Back To Us When There's A National Pencil Association......

....that does its best to put Republicans in office, and we'll take your comparison seriously.....

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Response to Scuba (Reply #12)


Response to Scuba (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:18 PM

17. The slippery slope argument is inherently broken by definition, so why be governed by it? (nt)

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:05 PM

11. What doctor would ask you that in the first place?

 

It's a crazy law.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:31 PM

25. Someone who has shoulder problems?

Someone who the doctor clearly sees shouldn't. It would have been a useful question put Holmes on his last check up.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #25)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:34 PM

27. A doctor isn't going to turn someone in for firing a gun.

 

That's ridiculous.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #27)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:01 PM

48. That's what I'm saying

Maybe it is relevant information to knowing the source of an injury or chronic pain. Isn't it possible that going hunting or target shooting could aggravate an injury? "It hurts when I move it like that... then stop doing that, it won't hurt so much."

Sort of like- "are you running with that knee injury?"

If a GP sees signs of severe depression\suicidal ideation ie. ("sometimes I just want to shoot myself and end it all"), it might be relevant to ask if they own a gun. They might refer them to a psychiatrist with notice that the person has the means and inclination to commit suicide.

Why do some gun advocates take exception to other people knowing they have them?

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:55 PM

41. Pediatricians tend to ask parents about it. They also ask about swimming pools.

Both are risks to young children that parents might not be thinking about.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #41)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:03 PM

54. My aunt was married to a man who they wish would have thought about it

The 10 yr. old shot the 8 yr. old. Locks and safety are sensible strategies that their dad sure wishes he had been more aware of.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:21 PM

62. A Florida pediatrician "fired" a patient...

Because she refused to answer if she had guns in her home. That what caused this law to be passed.

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/news/100729867

t was a question Amber Ullman least expected Wednesday from her children's pediatrician.

Do you keep a gun in the house?

When the 26-year-old Summerfield woman refused the answer, the Ocala doctor finished her child's examination and told her she had 30 days to find a new pediatrician and that she wasn't welcome at Children's Health of Ocala anymore.

“Whether I have a gun has nothing to do with the health of my child,” said the mother of three girls.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #62)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:36 PM

66. That doctor was obviously a nut.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:06 PM

76. valid question if the patient is suicidal...

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Response to dionysus (Reply #76)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:44 PM

87. Very true.

 

So now Florida doctors have their hands tied.

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:12 PM

14. Go to the CDC and look at the stats

I am fully aware that having a gun in the house puts me at a higher risk due to having a gun in the house,just like smoking does.

You might not be able to see it, but go down to the CDC.

By the way, as part of a pt history for depression it is very relevant, for example.

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:30 PM

23. This law was in response to an Ocala physician refusing to continue treating a child..

.. because her parents wouldn't tell the physician if they owned guns or not.

It appears to have been an overreaction.

btw, Nothing in the law prevents physician telling parents to secure guns, or give information on safe gun storage.

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:54 PM

40. You can always say "none of your business"

A lot of Pediatricians ask two questions of their new parents: Do you have a pool? and Do you have a gun? Because both pose substantial risks to toddlers if not properly secured. It's a heads up to people who may never have had to worry about little ones drowning or getting into wherever their guns are stored.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #40)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:57 PM

73. If you say that to a doctor, they can end the intake and instruct you to find another doctor.


I don't mind doctors asking the question, but to discontinue service over a privacy issue is ridiculous. A doctor could still hand the patient a brochure on gun or pool safety even if the patient doesn't respond.

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:59 PM

46. First of all, I ALWAYS hated you...

Kidding!

And I agree with you. I can no more see why a doctor should or shouldn't ask about gun ownership than I can see why someone would or would not be upset by it. Is everything so hunky-dory in Florida that they have time to waste on stuff like this?

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:19 PM

59. Perhaps he wants to make sure you are aware...

.. of how to keep it locked away from your child...because he cares about the health of your child...because he also asks about medicines and poisonous cleaners.

If every parent was fully aware about the dangers to children, less children would be injured from parent's ignorance.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #59)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 07:06 PM

106. And there is nothing stopping her/him from doing so....

 

they merely can not ask about, or collect information on, ownership.

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:00 PM

74. What if you're suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts?

Not to mention there are many medications that can deepen a person's depression or cause suicidal thoughts.

Wouldn't you think that easy access to firearms might be an issue in such case?

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:33 PM

82. Research public health dangers. Guns are there.

It's considered a health risk, contrary to the fantasies you see all over the internet by the angry old men. they fantasize "blowing someone away" who is trying to steal their lawnmower. But in reality, their gun will most likely be used by their grandson to commit suicide, or kill their 5 year old granddaughter in an accident.

Kids with guns in the home are more likely to die from gunshot wounds.. it IS a health issue.

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Response to DLine (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:45 PM

104. Perhaps if one is suffering from hearing loss

Part of the cause could be due to firing a loud weapon without proper ear protection?

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:56 AM

5. If I go to the doctor

with bronchitis, why should the doc ask me if I have a gun?

If you show up in the ER with a gunshot wound, then the cops get involved and questions are asked.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:13 PM

15. Would that change if you go to the doctor with depression?

Or not even then?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #15)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:18 PM

18. Not even then.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:45 PM

33. Have you ever taken a look at the statistics

regarding suicide?

I guess docs also do not have a need to know about drinking, and tobacco use.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #33)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:49 PM

35. They would have to ask about

kitchen knives, Tylenol, do you live any where near a tall building, cleaning products ... and on and on.

If somebody is going to kill themselves, they will find a way.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #35)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:51 PM

38. Actually, in depression situations, they do

But hey whatever, my precious is sacred.

What this is called by the way is a health risk assessment. ERs have been doing them for decades, all over the country.

Your personal doctor has been doing this for as long as we have practiced MODERN medicine. You are afraid the men in black will bust in when they read that in the doctor's note, that you have a gun? HIPA prevents that dear.

But if you do, ask for the neuralizer.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #38)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:56 PM

42. I don't own a gun, dear.

So the men in black have no reason to bust in here or whatever.

I still think that if I'm at the doctor for bronchitis, the doctor has no need to know if I have a gun or not.


edit to add ---
Years ago, I went to a doctor for depression. Nobody in the doctor's office asked about my kitchen, cleaning products or anything like that. I wasn't asked if my ex or I had a gun either. I was only asked if I was on other meds.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #42)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:01 PM

49. But you also wrote not even in depression

And doctors ask this regularly of new patients, especially pediatricians. Again, it is called health assessment... and risk.

It's been part of medical practice for a long time. These days the paranoids at the NRA think this is the first step in grabbing their guns... paranoia could be defined as a health risk by the way.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #42)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:02 PM

51. It's generally not about GP's, it's more about pediatricians.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/105/4/888.full

A number of specific measures are supported to reduce the destructive effects of guns in the lives of children and adolescents, including the regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, ownership, and use of firearms; a ban on handguns and semiautomatic assault weapons; and expanded regulations of handguns for civilian use.


The AAP stuck their toe into politics, they shouldn't be surprised when politics bite back.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #51)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:20 PM

61. You know I was so glad to practice medicine

emergency medicine, in a place where standard medical practice, that has been standard medical practice for literally decades, was not seen as part of the delusions of a small group of paranoid people who love their precious.

Yup, imagine the shock when we asked about guns, even in a place where having a gun could very well be ilegal, in the emergency room no less.

If it was the NRA yup, I could imagine it. They would be in contorsions, how dare you?

I mean it's not like we ever told the cops either, something about patient-doctor and all that crap... well we told the cops if somebody was actually shot by them, but then we enter the realm of an actual crime, perhaps an attempted murder.

It is a good thing that I will avoid the crazy in Florida for as long as I live.

And what you are saying is pure paranoia... have you ever read HIPPA? If nothing else, it is making the job of reporters that much more harder. I cannot find out what happened to a patient loaded to the back of an ambulance, even when the patient is a public person, or charged with a major crime. They will simply not tell us.

But what about releases? ONLY if the family says yes.

So you are telling me the doctors will tell the scary feds that you, x-digger, have a gun at home? You shit me right?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #61)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:30 PM

64. Please remove your fingers..

If you want to stuff words in my mouth, I'll need to see you wash your hands first.

The AAP has a long history of stepping into politics (most recently they filed an amicus brief in McDonald v Chicago).

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/mar/14/marion-hammer/gun-lobbyist-says-doctors-play-politics-gun-questi/

Nothing in Florida's law prevents physicians from presenting whatever kind of information on safe storage, or even advocating removal of firearms from the home.

Its misguided goal was to punish assholes like the one in Ocala who told a kid's parents to find another doctor because they wouldn't tell them if they had guns in the home or not.

He didn't say something like, "Okay, I understand you don't want to tell me. In case you do have guns, here's some information on safe storage and why I don't think they belong in a house with kids."

Nope, he told them to find a new doctor.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #64)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:36 PM

65. And a doctor is free and clear to say that

clear enough?

ANY DOCTOR can tell any patient to take a hike.

Now read this again, they have a right to do such, it is STANDARD MEDICAL PRACTICE... its's been STANDARD MEDICAL PRACTICE even in countries where guns are NOT that prevalent in the house.

It is just one more question doctors ask.

And if a patient, or in this case the GUARDIANS, refuse to answer questions pertaining to the care of the patient, the doctor has a RIGHT to tell them to take a hike.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #65)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:44 PM

68. And a doctor refusing to treat a woman because she won't tell him if she's sexually active?

Is that cool with you, too?

Or refusing to say whether or not they practice hinduism? (Could have health impacts, too, w/r/t nutrition.)

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #68)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:51 PM

71. Actually there is a reason why doctors do this in the US

LAWSUITS.

Also you are comparing telling somebody I won't treat you for religious reasons, with a valid concern that could lead to a major lawsuit.

As to nutrition, yes, it is relevant and doctors ask those questions, of course you do realize that a proper vegetarian diet is well, balanced right? Or you are telling me you did not know that?

And I have yet to see a doctor refusing to treat a woman for saying or refusing to say she is sexually active. From a public health concern it is important, and lemme tell you, icky now, a doctor can tell if a woman is or not with a pelvic exam.

And yes, it is as important as whether you have guns in the house, especially if you have guns in the house that are not secured, where kids are around.

But your precious comes first, we get it.

Avoid Colbert, he makes fun of folks like you regularly.





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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #71)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:13 PM

77. Boy you like to put your fingers in others' mouths, don't you?

It must make knocking down all those straw men real easy.

I'm not okay with doctors refusing to treat patients because they don't disclose all their life choices or which rights they exercise.

As to nutrition, yes, it is relevant and doctors ask those questions, of course you do realize that a proper vegetarian diet is well, balanced right? Or you are telling me you did not know that?


Again with the fingers.. If someone disclosed that they were a vegetarian, I'd ask about how balanced their diet was.

But I would be stomping mad if a doctor refused care for a patient based on refusal to answer questions about their religion (remember the asshole doctor who refused to treat muslims, or the one who refused to treat people who voted for President Omaba?)

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #77)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:18 PM

79. It is like talking to the wall

enjoy your precious.

Good bye.

I should know NOT to engage a gun nut.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #79)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:22 PM

81. Feel free to shut your eyes to things that don't match your preconceptions.

One of us has been discussing things rationally, and responding to what the other actually said.. you, on the other hand? Seem to want to make up my positions for yourself.

Which you're welcome to do, but don't expect me to fit your narrow view.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #79)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:49 PM

91. Refusal to agree with you is a sign of insanity? Wow, you really *were* a doctor!

Q: What's the difference between God and doctors?

A: For one thing, God doesn't think he's a doctor...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #91)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:09 PM

93. Not quite, but ignorance is rife

bye, bye...

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:58 AM

6. Doctor has no business asking that anyway

 

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Response to kctim (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:57 PM

43. Even if you're a new parent?

The PEDs around here ask about guns and pools. Both safety risks for kids.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #43)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:48 PM

69. Not even if you are a ANYTHING

 

It is none of any doctors business if I have a gun, a pool, a fan, a car, a mistress or a foot long dildo, in MY house.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #43)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 07:18 PM

108. Sure they are. And nothing is stopping the doc from offering safety info on any subject.

 

But ownership is none of her/his business.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:58 AM

7. A friend of mine

who has a lot of friends in Florida tells me people are sick of this republican bullshit. They are tired of waking up to some new murder disguised as justified protection. You start pulling Doctors' licenses and the good ones are going to self-deport to some less crazy place.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:01 PM

9. The ignorance. It burns.

"They can coerce the names and habits of gun owners out of doctors' medical records, that's what scares me most."

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Response to Bertha Venation (Reply #9)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:36 PM

29. I can't even get my eyeglass prescription over the phone

Without faxing a signed medical release according to HIPAA. I doubt the Florida Medical Association is coming for our guns!

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:08 PM

13. And at the same time FL has the easiest concealed carry laws in the country.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #13)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:14 PM

16. Shhh, you will get the ire of a few Floridians

With that talk.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:49 PM

37. No...

We just don't like "stupid" talk.

Or stupid questions that have nothing to do with going to the doctor.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #13)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:02 PM

50. No they don't

 

VT, AZ, AK,& WY don't require permits to carry a concealed gun.

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Response to twizzler (Reply #50)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:40 PM

85. Factual accuracy is optional for gun control advocates...

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #13)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 07:20 PM

109. Actually, no they don't.

 

You could have checked that in about 60 seconds, had you been interested in facts instead of casting what you think is an insult.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #109)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:08 PM

110. I was talking about the irony of the two different laws.

If you consider that an insult, oh well.

I jsaid that because someone I know just got a concealed carry permit from FL even though he lives here in TX

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #110)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:13 PM

111. Yes, it's often called a "non-resident permit"....

 

and many states offer them in lieu of reciprocity shortfalls, or as revenue generation (a "poll tax", if you will).

Again, you seem quite unfamiliar with gun laws. You can start remedial education here: www.handgunlaw.us

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #111)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:16 PM

112. For some people I have to continue to use this-otherwise it just sails right by.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #112)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 11:31 AM

115. O.K., my apology.

 

I seem to have missed a lot of that this week. I blame the guy who made the coffee....

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:22 PM

20. No reason you can't tell the doctor it's none of his/her business, is there?

Why do they need a law? Just tell the doctor to fuck off.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #20)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:31 PM

24. One patient did just that, and the pediatrician told them to find a new doctor. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #24)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:37 PM

31. Why treat a patient who won't cooperate?

Guns in the home are a danger to children's health, children's health is what pediatricians are supposed to be concerned with.

If the pediatrician asked if you had all the poisonous substances secured in your home and you refused to answer that question she would be just as justified in telling you to take your child to another provider.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #31)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:49 PM

36. Nice slide there..

It wasn't, "are guns secure", it was "have any guns".

Nothing in the law prevents doctors from presenting information on safe storage.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #36)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:03 PM

52. Almost everyone has poisons in the home, a lot of household products are toxic if ingested..

It would be a silly question to ask if they have anything poisonous..

On the other hand not everyone has a gun in the home and if the question is "are your guns secured" there are four possible answers, "yes", "no" , "I don't have any guns." and "none of your business".



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #52)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:09 PM

57. Then they could say, "If you have any guns in your home, here's a pamphlet on best practices..

..to secure them."

Problem solved.

Just as I'm sure they have a pamphlet on storing your household chemical products.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #57)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:20 PM

60. But I bet they still ask about your storage of chemical products..

Because a lot of people don't RTFM until after things go pear shaped for the most part..

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #60)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:24 PM

63. Then the pediatrician can read the pamphlet to them.

That, also, isn't proscribed by this law.

Honestly, I think this law was an over-reaction to one asshole pediatrician.

If the subject were something different, I think the reaction would be the polar opposite..

If a doctor had kicked out a teenage girl for refusing to answer if she were sexually active, a whole other group of folks would be up in arms (pun intended).

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #63)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:14 PM

78. So you don't have any 1st Amendment quibbles with this law?

Do you think it's an efficient use of a highly trained pediatrician's time to read a pamphlet to someone in order to avoid asking a simple question?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #78)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:18 PM

80. As I stated above, this law is an over-reaction.

I don't believe it would stand up to constitutional muster, no. But I also don't agree with doctors refusing care based on not answering questions about which rights they exercise.

I think it was a great big 'fuck you' to the AAP, after they jumped into the political fray regarding gun control.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #80)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:47 PM

90. If a doctor refused to see me as a patient because I refused to consent to his prying

the severing of the relationship would be mutual.

If I said I want birth control because my husband and I have decided to not have children the doctor has no right to interrogate me as to why we made that choice. He's my employee; I'm not his ward.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #90)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:31 PM

95. I thought the law was about guns?

How did we get onto birth control?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #95)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:44 PM

96. Principles

My home is just that: my home. It doesn't matter if the subject is birth control or self-defense; good and law-abiding people are not obligated to explain anything to anyone for any reason. On the contrary, it is the law that is obligated to stay out of our private lives.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #96)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:52 PM

97. A pediatrician is not a representative of the government..

Now maybe if we had a UK like NHS you might have a point..

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #97)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 05:03 PM

98. OK, so the doctor is not part of the government

That gives them even less of a right to pry into private lives. Surely you aren't advocating that a self-appointed group can start demanding accountability of private citizens based on the group's political biases.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #98)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 05:10 PM

99. You have the right to tell them to mind their own business..

Alternatively you could simply lie to them..

Do you also think doctors shouldn't ask about diet, tobacco use or any other lifestyle choice that could have medical implications?


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #99)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 05:32 PM

100. There are countless ways to shorten your life. How many should be covered in a 30 minute Dr. visit?

How much of my life am I required to lay bare to strangers to satisfy their personal biases? And at the end of the day that's all this is about: someone doesn't like something so they feel they have a right to pry into the lives of others.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #100)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 05:43 PM

101. You are not *required* to reveal anything..

A doctor has no way to compel you to even speak to her at all.

"Ms Unicorn, according to your tests you are borderline diabetic, do you realize that diet is a strong influence on the progress of your condition?"

"Mind your own damn business, what I eat is no concern of yours, just give me a prescription and fix the problem."

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #101)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 05:50 PM

102. Absolutely true

But what other groups are allowed to even ask you to expain your life based on their biases?

I would also note your examples are apples v oranges. If I go for an exam that includes blood work and a glucose check then certainly diet could factor into anything revealed but I'm the one who initiated the inquiry by requesting the exam with glucose screening. Unless I walk into the office with a bullet hole in me why should personal gun ownership even be a topic of conversation?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #102)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:42 PM

103. Anyone not associated with the government can ask you anything..

And you have the absolute right to say nothing or tell them to mind their own beeswax or lie to them if you wish..

That whole freedom of speech thing is just so damn inconvenient.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #103)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:58 PM

105. So employers can demand to know who an employee will vote for

and are free to sever the employment relationship if an answer is refused. First amendment, right?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #105)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 07:11 PM

107. You've convinced me..

Doctors should never ask any questions that could possibly be construed as personal..

Happy?

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:22 PM

21. An interrogative is not an interrogation

Remind me again who's supposedly against "Big Government"?

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:29 PM

22. Asking about guns

Makes perfect sense during a "well child" visit, along with asking about other behaviors that would put a child at risk: does he/she always use a car seat or seat belt? How much television does the kid watch? Are medications stored properly? Are electrical outlets covered? Do you have a swimming pool?

The providers aren't trying to confiscate the guns, any more than they plan on taking away the television or the car. They just want the parents to know how easy it is for a child to injure himself or others if it's stored improperly.

It's a legitimate medical question.

And - yeah, I live here too. Sometimes it sucks.

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Response to FloridaJudy (Reply #22)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:58 PM

44. Thank you Judy - precisely rightq

And a doctor has every right to "fire" and uncooperative patient, who has every right to go find an NRA stalwart pediatrician.

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Response to FloridaJudy (Reply #22)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:03 PM

53. My kid just had her physical.

It was for 11-12 year olds. They asked about the guns, along with peers, alcohol, drugs, changes in behavior, changes in grades, changes in activities, and physical changes.

The nurse said if a parent answered "yes" to the guns, they ask if the guns are in easy access of the kids and remind the parents that soon they'll be able to enroll their kids in a hunter's safety class. That's all, unless the child show signs of aggressive behavior or depression.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:33 PM

26. Grossly unconstitutional. It will never survive

the appellate process given such a strong ruling by the district court.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:35 PM

28. Well you can always come and stay with me in Arizona - I'll make you learn to love Florida :)


Hang in there - and fight him every step of the way.

That's just what we have to do when the public elects wackos. Stick together and make our voices heard.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:37 PM

30. du rec. nt

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:47 PM

34. Do doctors have right to ask

if you have safety plugs on electrical outlets, locks on med cabinets and household cleaners, or even a fence around your pool, when you have young children?

Do they have that right? Yes, they do, and you have the right to not answer on these safety issues also. The doctor also has the right to tell you goodbye. It should be the same with guns which also can be a hazzard, as with all the above, to young children. They are just trying to make sure that you are aware of SAFETY procedures around young children.

Ricky the Alien is just one more stupid, Republican Governor.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:53 PM

39. The last thing they want is an irate patient

with a gun in their office!

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:59 PM

45. and I thought my state was bad!

My kid had a physical the other day and it was written right on the questionnaire about guns in the home or access to them. I checked "no" but asked the nurse about it. Her response? "We just ask the parents if the kids have easy access to them and remind those who have children in the right age group about hunter's safety classes." That's it.

The doctors in Florida can come to Missouri. There are tons of small towns who'd love to have them-and would let them ask questions. They'd let them do whatever, as long as they no longer have to drive 50 miles to a doctor's appointment.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:00 PM

47. I'm not familiar with this "Firearm Owners' Privacy Act" but from first reading about it here, it

Last edited Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

appears gun owners have more privacy rights in their doctors office than women do with their bodies in their doctors office...

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Response to midnight (Reply #47)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:42 PM

67. We got a WINNAH

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Response to midnight (Reply #47)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:52 PM

72. Excellent point.

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Response to midnight (Reply #47)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:14 PM

94. I'm guessing a lot of the supporters of this law don't believe in women's privacy

I'm guessing Rick Santorum would agree to a patient's right to privacy, just so long as that patient isn't female.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:05 PM

55. Ggggh!

Of course the courts have held that this law tramples doctors' rights to free speech, but upheld the requirement that doctors lie to women who want to abort. Seriously, f*** you all, Florida & rethugs.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:50 PM

70. Its a bad law, but it is equally as bad for a dr to discontinue service over privacy issues


Its wrong, but not illegal.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:02 PM

75. Just one of many reasons the NRA can kiss my ass

They care absolutely nothing about the safety of the general public, just as long as everyone has easy access to guns, no questions asked.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:34 PM

83. Sigh. We FINALLY got the GD forum back from the gun arguments. So it begins again n/t

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:38 PM

84. Simple. Lie about it.

"Do you own guns?"

"No."

See how easy that was? Think people don't lie to their doctors every day?

"I only smoke occasionally."

"I rarely drink alcohol."

Bake

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:40 PM

86. I'd prefer an education campaign to a law.

That is, ensure that patients know they have every right to tell the doctor MYOB.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:45 PM

88. Health professionals ask weird questions sometimes

My wife and I had a baby a few years ago. While she was pregnant she was frequently asked if she feared for her life or safety at home by doctors or other health care professionals while she was in to see how the baby was doing. If I was in the room they would read down their list of questions and when they'd get to that one they'd just show the piece of paper to her or tilt the monitor towards her and ask "can you answer this question?".

The first time they asked and she told me about it we thought it was funny. But then, when it kept happening, it started to feel creepy. Like, is there something about us, or just me, that prompted that question? Obviously there wasn't as they were always reading from a list of prepared standard questions. Still, it felt weird.

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Response to GOTV (Reply #88)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 04:22 AM

113. It's a standard question

That all medical providers are encouraged to ask of patients, female ones in particular. Here in Florida, it's the law, one of our few good ones. The major cause of death in pregnant women and new mothers here in the US is domestic violence. My agency made it an iron-clad rule to ask it of every patient at least once a year.

Every single visit does seem a bit obsessive, particularly for pregnant women who are seen once a month or even more often, but you weren't singled out. It's SOP for OB/GYNs, just like asking about smoking.

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Response to FloridaJudy (Reply #113)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 09:22 AM

114. Yeah, I didn't really think I was being singled out and to be fair ...

... we saw numerous technicians over the 9 months and so I don't think she was ever asked that by the same person twice but I think she was asked by every person she met.

I guess the part that still seem strange to me is that no one ever asks her that when she's not pregnant.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 12:02 PM

116. Our pediatrician was asking this question in Illinois

nearly 25 years ago. Do you have guns, do you have a pool, do you use sunscreen and bike helmets, do you have a trampoline... all standard questions.

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Response to lilithsrevenge12 (Original post)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 12:57 PM

117. There are no good reasons for preventing doctors asking anything for this simple reason...


The patient is not legally obliged to answer any of their questions.

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