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Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:38 AM

 

So now we're going into Syria

"US President Barack Obama has signed a secretive order authorizing US financial and military support for Syrian rebel forces, effectively taking sides in what many observers say has become a full blown civil war between the opposition forces such as the Free Syria Army and the ruling government of President Bassar al-Assad and its military.

According to Reuters, Obama's order -- known as an "intelligence finding" -- was "approved earlier this year" and gives the CIA and other US agencies broad permissions to provide tactical support and funnel equipment to these opposition forces. The full extent of clandestine support that US agencies might be providing remains unclear.

Though the order stops short of authorizing the arming of rebels directly, it was noted that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey -- all US allies in the region and beneficiaries of large US arms deals -- are coordinating closely with US operatives and the Syrian opposition forces."
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/08/02

Now why, exactly, did Obama win that Nobel Peace Prize? It certainly wasn't for bringing peace, because here we are, getting more and more involved in the Middle East. But hey, it keeps the MIC well fed and cared for. Large arms deals for Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey, just doing business.

Meanwhile, here at home our economy is sliding back back into a recession, millions of people are homeless, unemployed, poor and getting poorer, yet we continue to spend more and more money on the military, getting into these little boutique wars where are hands are relatively clean and a tidy profit is to be made by the MIC. Yemen, Uganda, Libya, Somalia, and now Syria. When will it end? When will it become more imperative to help our own people than to make profit for corporations?

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Reply So now we're going into Syria (Original post)
MadHound Aug 2012 OP
trumad Aug 2012 #1
MadHound Aug 2012 #2
trumad Aug 2012 #4
MadHound Aug 2012 #5
trumad Aug 2012 #12
MadHound Aug 2012 #24
arely staircase Aug 2012 #35
MadHound Aug 2012 #41
arely staircase Aug 2012 #44
MadHound Aug 2012 #46
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #53
MadHound Aug 2012 #77
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #85
MadHound Aug 2012 #87
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #94
MadHound Aug 2012 #97
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #103
stevenleser Aug 2012 #175
arely staircase Aug 2012 #69
MadHound Aug 2012 #76
arely staircase Aug 2012 #78
NickB79 Aug 2012 #149
leveymg Aug 2012 #88
stevenleser Aug 2012 #176
leveymg Aug 2012 #178
trumad Aug 2012 #13
MadHound Aug 2012 #25
stevenleser Aug 2012 #177
atreides1 Aug 2012 #96
area51 Aug 2012 #8
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #110
Enrique Aug 2012 #3
harun Aug 2012 #6
MadHound Aug 2012 #7
harun Aug 2012 #14
Romulox Aug 2012 #16
arely staircase Aug 2012 #38
Romulox Aug 2012 #107
harun Aug 2012 #170
Romulox Aug 2012 #171
harun Aug 2012 #172
Romulox Aug 2012 #174
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #26
MadHound Aug 2012 #28
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #32
MadHound Aug 2012 #36
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #39
MadHound Aug 2012 #43
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #56
MadHound Aug 2012 #68
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #74
MadHound Aug 2012 #81
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #93
MadHound Aug 2012 #100
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #108
arely staircase Aug 2012 #150
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #58
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #57
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #182
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #183
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #184
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #186
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #187
Whisp Aug 2012 #33
MadHound Aug 2012 #37
Whisp Aug 2012 #40
MadHound Aug 2012 #42
Whisp Aug 2012 #59
Liberal_Dog Aug 2012 #65
Whisp Aug 2012 #98
Hippo_Tron Aug 2012 #67
MadHound Aug 2012 #71
Hippo_Tron Aug 2012 #167
Posteritatis Aug 2012 #101
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #15
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #60
DevonRex Aug 2012 #62
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #117
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #128
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #137
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #163
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #169
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #142
ananda Aug 2012 #9
n2doc Aug 2012 #10
Marrah_G Aug 2012 #21
spanone Aug 2012 #11
Romulox Aug 2012 #18
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #118
Romulox Aug 2012 #17
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #19
Marrah_G Aug 2012 #20
HopeHoops Aug 2012 #22
Whisp Aug 2012 #34
woo me with science Aug 2012 #72
HopeHoops Aug 2012 #105
girl gone mad Aug 2012 #109
Whisp Aug 2012 #114
nanabugg Aug 2012 #23
woo me with science Aug 2012 #70
Lasher Aug 2012 #84
Posteritatis Aug 2012 #104
Lasher Aug 2012 #115
Posteritatis Aug 2012 #122
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #27
MadHound Aug 2012 #29
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #45
MadHound Aug 2012 #49
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #54
MadHound Aug 2012 #73
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #80
MadHound Aug 2012 #83
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #89
MadHound Aug 2012 #95
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #99
MadHound Aug 2012 #102
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #106
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #120
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2012 #129
snooper2 Aug 2012 #173
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2012 #126
agent46 Aug 2012 #30
woo me with science Aug 2012 #63
AtomicKitten Aug 2012 #140
woo me with science Aug 2012 #145
AtomicKitten Aug 2012 #146
woo me with science Aug 2012 #148
AtomicKitten Aug 2012 #152
woo me with science Aug 2012 #153
AtomicKitten Aug 2012 #156
dionysus Aug 2012 #179
NCTraveler Aug 2012 #31
brooklynite Aug 2012 #47
Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2012 #48
woo me with science Aug 2012 #66
Comrade Grumpy Aug 2012 #125
Ikonoklast Aug 2012 #50
MadHound Aug 2012 #52
Ikonoklast Aug 2012 #82
MadHound Aug 2012 #86
Ikonoklast Aug 2012 #92
Comrade Grumpy Aug 2012 #127
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #51
woo me with science Aug 2012 #55
Vidar Aug 2012 #61
woo me with science Aug 2012 #64
woo me with science Aug 2012 #75
pampango Aug 2012 #79
MadHound Aug 2012 #90
woo me with science Aug 2012 #111
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2012 #91
Robb Aug 2012 #112
Jeff In Milwaukee Aug 2012 #116
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #131
librechik Aug 2012 #113
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #134
librechik Aug 2012 #139
Yeah Its Spin Aug 2012 #119
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #121
woo me with science Aug 2012 #132
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #135
woo me with science Aug 2012 #154
LineLineLineLineReply k
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #155
SidDithers Aug 2012 #143
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #144
Marrah_G Aug 2012 #181
ThomThom Aug 2012 #123
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #136
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #165
HiPointDem Aug 2012 #168
treestar Aug 2012 #124
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2012 #130
JoePhilly Aug 2012 #185
bikebloke Aug 2012 #133
AtomicKitten Aug 2012 #138
Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2012 #141
woo me with science Aug 2012 #147
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #162
SIIHPAPP87 Aug 2012 #151
Warpy Aug 2012 #157
malthaussen Aug 2012 #158
UnrepentantLiberal Aug 2012 #166
Agony Aug 2012 #159
great white snark Aug 2012 #160
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2012 #161
slipslidingaway Aug 2012 #164
davidthegnome Aug 2012 #180

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:40 AM

1. Well then again

we can just have Assad just kill his own citizens non-stop....

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Response to trumad (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:42 AM

2. So instead of Assad kill them, we can.

 

Didn't we see this same play in Iraq? Vietnam? Any one of a dozen South and Central American countries?

Somehow killing people for peace never seems to work.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:46 AM

4. Uhhh--- we won't have boots on the ground in Syria.

Iraq was a full invasion....

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Response to trumad (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:49 AM

5. Didn't have boots on the ground in Iraq for ten years,

 

But we managed to kill a half million Iraqis nevertheless, what between our sanctions and thrice weekly bombing runs.

No, we're going to take the chicken shit way of war, drones, drones and more drones, killing innocents, laying waste to the countryside, while the pilots are safely overseas and the news snoozes.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:38 AM

12. OK---if you're OK with Assa killing his own people...

fine by me.

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Response to trumad (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:18 AM

24. Some despot somewhere is always killing his or her own people,

 

Why should the US always be the one to go in? Why should we spend our fortune on guns and war when Syria's neighbors, who(thanks to our MIC) are well armed and prepared for this sort of thing aren't lifting a finger.

And let's look at who the rebels are. Much like elsewhere touched by the Arab Spring, Syria's rebels are made up of mostly religious fanatics, folks who want to establish Sharia law, people who are morally offended by the mere existence of the United States. People whom, if are successful, will take control, establish a theocratic state, and then come after the US, despite the fact that we helped them.

So why help these folks now, when we'll be fighting them in twenty years?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #24)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:44 AM

35. i have never found the

whole "if we can't help everybody we shouldn't help anyone" argument very convincing. it is like saying why did the firefighters on 9/11 help the people on the floors below where the plane crashed when they didn't help the people above? or i'm not going to adopt a shelter kitten because i can't adopt the, all.

you are comparing adopting a kitten to war?!!!!!!

there i saved you the trouble.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #35)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:53 AM

41. I think that you're missing my point

 

We aren't doing this out of the kindness of our hearts, we are doing this in order to feed and take care of the MIC. The military budget of the US is taking up over half the US budget all told, and yet there are people dying on our streets from want, poverty and lack of basic services.

The MIC has become the driving force in this country, in many ways it has become the be all and end all of this country. If we are going to improve as a people, we need to free ourselves from the MIC, and continuing to feed it, and set up future conflicts for it isn't the way to break the grip it has on our country. The only way to do that is to stop fighting, stop these foreign excursions.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #41)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:57 AM

44. so if we do nothing that will stop the fighting? it hasn't so far. nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #44)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:01 PM

46. By what right can we interfere?

 

Would you have wanted England or France to interefere in our Civil War?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #46)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:11 PM

53. France interfered in our revolutionary war.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #53)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:08 PM

77. Much like we do, France interfered for their own interests,

 

They wanted to break the British monopoly on US trade. Furthermore, they remained as clear of the actual fighting as they possibly could.

And unlike what is going on in Syria, it was a colonial rebellion, not a civil war.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #85)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:17 PM

87. I don't rely on Wikipedia, that's why I know my history.

 

A degree in it and everything. Even been published. What's your credentials in the subject?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #87)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:23 PM

94. We'll, since this is the internet I can pretty much

 

claim to be whatever I want. What would that prove?

I hope you don't teach debate. You're not very good at it.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #94)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:31 PM

97. No, don't teach it,

 

But won state and went to regionals in high school. Got my emerald, lettered and everything.

Funny you bring up the anonymity of the internet, yet use Wiki as your source, a source that is written by anonymous folks, and isn't peer reviewed. Hmm, disconnect much?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #97)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:39 PM

103. You said France had little to do with our revolution.

 

Last edited Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:27 PM - Edit history (1)

That they did is common knowledge.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #77)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 10:58 AM

175. Both countries also interfered in our civil war. nt

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Response to MadHound (Reply #46)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:58 PM

69. if it had brought the war to a quicker end, preserved the union and gotten rid of slavery,

absolutley. and i thought it was awesome that the french interfered in our revolution which was really more like a civil war given that until the final outcome all the main combatants were subjects of the british crown.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #69)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:06 PM

76. You obviously don't know your history,

 

England wouldn't have come in on the side of the Union, and France wasn't even in the picture.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #76)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:09 PM

78. france was certainly in the picture

of your hypothetical. and that is what i was responding to.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #24)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:17 PM

149. It's the oil: we must keep our grip on the ME no matter what the cost, because oil is our lifeblood

As horrifying as that policy has become

Or, to quote the novel Dune: "The spice must flow!"

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Response to trumad (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:17 PM

88. You know, it's going to come out that casualties went up after Obama signed off on this, don't you?

The US has also violated the UN weapons embargo, at least by complicity with KSA, GCC and others whose actions we have been coordinating and facilitating in this covert intervention.

Is the Obama Administration prepared to answer charges of complicity in war crimes committed by the FSA and other forces receiving our help? We need to be asking this question before we get even more deeply into this religious war and sectarian slaughterhouse.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #88)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 11:01 AM

176. Oh yes, I am sure it will be a Romney campaign tactic to say Obama is too forceful of a CINC.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #176)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 11:12 AM

178. I'm sure it won't be, Steven.

If anything, I expect to hear Romney attacking from the Right, and advocating a direct military attack on Syria.

Then, more of the "Real men go to Tehran."

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Response to MadHound (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:39 AM

13. Oh and BTW:

As I vet I prefer the "chicken shit way" .....

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Response to trumad (Reply #13)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:20 AM

25. Your status as a vet has no bearing on this question,

 

It doesn't make your opinion any more, or less valid than anybody else's. So please, stop trying to pull that shit on me, it doesn't work.

Nice to see that you support drones though, a nice, impersonal way to conduct a war. With no actual skin in the game it becomes so much easier to kill the innocents around the world.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 11:02 AM

177. Its a very valid point. Servicepeople would much rather drones get shot at instead of them. nt

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Response to trumad (Reply #13)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:29 PM

96. As a Vet myself

I disagree...the "chicken shit way" is the ability to sanitize what the effects of war are from the general population! War is dirty, bloody, ugly and real people die...in other words it's something to be avoided at all costs.

Make it into an XBox game and no one will ever get tired of it, because their is no risk involved!

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Response to trumad (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:03 AM

8. We're not the world's policemen.

We have 30.5% unemployment, which is worse than the '30s Depression: we need a new WPA, and we have 273 deaths per day due to lack of medical care in the U.S., because we have no right to health care in this country. Forcing people to buy insurance isn't going to change this. Just two of the things that need to be done are to train more doctors and nurses, and get rid of the parasitic for-profit insurance companies. These are systemic problems we need to solve, before our govt. goes dipping its hands into our wallets and throwing money at yet another war of choice. You, of course, can become a mercenary and go help them if you're so inclined.

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Response to trumad (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:52 PM

110. he's been in power for 12 years, & his father before him. it's a wonder there are any people left

 

in syria with all this "non-stop" killing going on.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:46 AM

3. shhhh

it's a secret...

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:49 AM

6. Obama did a good thing

Syrians want to make positive changes to their governance. When attempting to protest their gov't killed them. Obama is helping them defend themselves.

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Response to harun (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:51 AM

7. First of all, fighting for peace is oxymoronic

 

Second of all, who appointed us the ones who have to go in and "help"? Where is the UN, the Arab League? It costs us billions for these excursions abroad, money that is being wasted abroad while people are dying here at home.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:49 AM

14. All people have a right to defend themselves, it is a basic human right

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Response to harun (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:04 AM

16. The United States isn't being attacked by Syria, so our aggression can't be styled "self defense".

This is just definitional.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:47 AM

38. i think he was refering to the syrian people

not the u.s.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #38)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:48 PM

107. This thread is about *US involvement* in Syria's conflict. nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #16)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 06:49 PM

170. The United States isn't attacking anyone in Syria.

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Response to harun (Reply #170)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 12:37 AM

171. Then, by definition, the US isn't involved in "self defense" in Syria. It was a gaffe to mention it.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #171)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 09:51 AM

172. I was talking about the rebels right to self defense.

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Response to harun (Reply #172)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 10:53 AM

174. Right, but this thread is about *US INVOLVEMENT* in that conflict. By definition, "not self defense"

Look at the OP.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:26 AM

26. Fighting of peace may be oxymoronic

But sitting on your ass while civilians get slaughtered is kind of icky...

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #26)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:32 AM

28. So why are we the ones who are going in?

 

Where's the Arab League, this is in their own back yard. Where's the UN, this is what they were designed for.

Besides, as is always the case, when we go in, civilians will still be getting slaughtered, probably at even a higher rate.

We have people dying on the streets, literally, here at home. Why are we spending our money abroad and not taking care of our own population?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #28)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:39 AM

32. If you read the article...

You'll see that we'll be supplying the Syrian rebels with arms through many members of the Arab League (Saudi Arabia, et. al.)

And we're going in there because a meltdown in Syria has the potential to destablize the entire region (not that it's rock-solid stable at the moment). But given the choice between spending a few billion on military hardware and the prospect of a war between Syria and Turkey, I'd say that we're investing in the lesser of two evils.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #32)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:45 AM

36. And meanwhile, people are dying on our streets here at home

 

We need to take care of our own, and stop feeding the MIC, for that is what this is. It isn't about Syria, it isn't about the Syrian people, it is about keeping the MIC well fed and cared for.

And let's say the rebels win. Considering what is going on where rebels have established control, where religious law and theocracy is being established, in twenty years we'll be facing a hostile, religiously fanatical Syria who will use those same weapons against us. Of course, that will be another boom time for the MIC.

Or if they get real lucky, the MIC could build this up to Vietnam proportions. After all, how did Vietnam start? Ah, yes, sending financial and material aid over there.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #36)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:50 AM

39. I think the Syrian people would disagree with you.

And I'm REALLY glad you weren't around in France long about 1778.

If the Syrians, or any other nation, decide that they want religious law, that's fine with me. As long as that's a decision that they've made for themselves and not forced upon them by some dictator.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #39)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:57 AM

43. Yes, establish a religious law that says to kill Americans,

 

And in twenty years we'll be back in Syria, fighting the people we helped. Gee, didn't that work out so very well with the mujahideen.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #43)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:20 PM

56. And because all Arabs think alike and act alike, we can predict the results...

Careful, your racism is showing.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #56)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:55 PM

68. What racism?

 

Syrians and Afghans are entirely separate people. Afghans certainly aren't Arabs, and most knowledgeable folks would know that.

Whose racism is showing now?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #68)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:05 PM

74. Still yours...

Assuming that we'll have the same results in Syria as we did in Afghanistan is to make some pretty stupid assumptions.

You know that old saying about how you should stop digging once you're in a hole? Yeah. Stop digging.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #74)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:11 PM

81. I'm not the one lumping two disparate people into the same category,

 

Also, unlike you, I'm judging what is going to happen by our other imperial experiences abroad, Afghanistan, Iraq, much of SW Asia, much of Central and South America.

You obviously have nothing cogent to retort with, so you keep flinging the racism charge around. A shame it shows up your weaknesses instead. Speaking of stop digging. . .

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Response to MadHound (Reply #81)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:22 PM

93. Uh...

Do you not read what you type?

The whole point of your argument was that we shouldn't help the Syrians because, like the Afghans, we'll just end up fighting them in a war twenty years later.

Nice use of a Fox News talking point, BTW.

So, yes. You ARE in fact the one who is lumping two disparate groups together and I am the one who is saying that you can't make that assumption.

And just out of curiousity, which war did we fight in Central and South America? Against which forces with whom we had previously been allied? And as to Iraq and SW Asia (pssst -- Vietnam is in SE Asia) they were the results of Cold War policies gone wrong.

Seriously. Put down the shovel. Go for a walk.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #93)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:35 PM

100. Wow, you are getting desperate,

 

Yes, I made a typo, excuuuuuuuse me.

And apparently you don't know the concept of historical examples.

And Iraq and SW Asia weren't the result of Cold War policies gone wrong. They were the result of US imperical greed unleashed.

But hey, you get your history from Wikipedia, so I shouldn't expect that you know that much.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #100)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:50 PM

108. I can see...

that you're hellbent on making a fool of yourself. So I suppose I really can't stop you.

Iraq and SW Asia (still having typing difficulties) were the result of Cold War policies (i.e., supporting any regime that would oppose the Soviet Union), and if you don't understand that, then you'll really never be able to grasp the history of the second half of the twentieth century.

I rarely say this, but maybe you should START reading Wikipedia if these posts reflect your lack of understanding of recent world events. Historical examples are fine, provided that you place those examples into the context of the circumstances in which they occur, circumstances which are never, EVER the same from one historical era or from one region to the next.

To get back to your original point, it would be foolish to assume that because in the case of Afghanistan, we funded the Mujahideen, who eventually turned on us, it then follows that if we side with the Syrian militia, they'll end up turning on us, as well. There are drastically different circumstances at work. And I would go into those circumstances at some length, but I don't think it would do any good.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #68)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:20 PM

150. why use Afghanistan as the example when Libya is probably a closer comparison?

a secular disctatorship that slaughtered peaceful demonstrators and touched off a revolution.

could it be that is because Libya is an example of western intervention that was actually successful and resulted in free elections in which the non-islamist liberals won. doesn't fit the narrative i suppose.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #43)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:26 PM

58. We intentionally funded the craziest people we could find

 

to attack the USSR. Different situation.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #36)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:23 PM

57. Did Kosovo or Libya turn into another Vietnam?

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #57)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 01:52 PM

182. kosovo, a mafia-run state with 45% unemployment & growing radical islam, another great success

 

for the color revolution gang.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #182)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:11 PM

183. You might as well just go ahead and say it.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #183)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:17 PM

184. which part do you deny, mafia-run, unemployment figures, influence of radical islam, or color

 

revolution?

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #184)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 05:43 PM

186. When you have a population that has been

 

under the thumb of a murderous dictator for many years, the transition is not going to be seamless and is usually going to be ugly. No matter how you try to put it here, your vote is to keep them controlled by a ruthless dictator, like mindless animals. My vote is a wish for their freedom. They're more likely to hate us for supporting the dictator than they would be for helping them to be free.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #186)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:46 AM

187. if the 'murderous dictator' you're talking about is milosevic, he was in power 11 years, 8 as pres

 

Last edited Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:38 AM - Edit history (3)

serbia (1989-1997, 1989-91 under the soviets, the rest as elected president of serbian republic), 3 as pres of republic of yugoslavia (1997-2000).

He's been gone for twelve years.

They're not free; they're financial colonies of the west, surviving on overseas remittances & foreign aid; 45% unemployment & governments run by international gangsters and drug dealers, literally.

their 'free' population is voting with feet & leaving.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:42 AM

33. Did you think Clinton was right in not helping Rwanda?

 

He seems to regret that

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Response to Whisp (Reply #33)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:46 AM

37. And again, where was the rest of the world?

 

Why are we the ones spending our fortune on war while our own people are dying on the streets of our cities?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #37)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:52 AM

40. how about WW2, would you have got involved if you called the shots?

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #40)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:54 AM

42. In WWII we were attacked,

 

When has Syria, Libya, Uganda, Sudan, Rwanda, Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, on and on, ever attacked us?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #42)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:28 PM

59. you mean We as America?

 

the Japanese certainly attacked but what about Germany? I'm not so much up into war history but I thought it was Britain they attacked. and France, etc.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #59)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:42 PM

65. What About Germany?

Uh, they declared war on us on December 11,1941.

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Response to Liberal_Dog (Reply #65)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:33 PM

98. hmm, then why did America wait so long to get into the fray?

 

war has been declared on poverty and drugs for a while now - maybe Germany was just talkin' shit like that.

don't turn this into me being sympathic to Nazi's please, cuz things do get really weird around here with accusations. I just wonder why sometimes it okay to go into wars and sometimes not.

I wonder if some people are aware that generally over history it's okay to invade/pillage/rob/retaliate/mass murder and war with people from countries mostly from south of the equator or ones that have skin colours different than what is that of the leaders who call these wars.

That's all I'm getting at.



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Response to MadHound (Reply #37)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:53 PM

67. Because for the past half century we've been the world's stabilizing force

After the major powers of the world were decimated by World War II, save for US and the USSR, the world turned to us for protection and stability. And we obliged and provided that protection and stability.

Now that the Cold War is over and there are other nations out there who have rebuilt there military forces back up, I agree that it's time to re-examine our commitment to being the world's peacekeeper. But old habits die hard and often we pick up the slack for fear that somebody else will not.

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Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #67)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:01 PM

71. And just how stabilizing has America been over the past sixty odd years?

 

How many democratically elected governments have we toppled in favor of dictators? How many innocents have been killed in order to "stabilize" a particular region? How many wars have we mounted?

Stability has never been the goal of the US, even though that is one of the many excuses we've used. Go ask the Iraqis, the Afghans, the Vietnamese, and so many others how our "stability" worked out for them.

The only goal the US has is the same goal that any empire has had, that acquisition and retention of as much geopolitical power as we can. Peacekeeping, stability, fighting communism, terrorism, whatever, the length and breadth of our excuses and cover stories is large and growing larger, but they are excuses and cover stories nevertheless.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #71)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:29 PM

167. South Korea, Taiwan, Germany, and Japan (among others) would differ with your assessment

But I'm not denying that we've propped up a lot of dictators and caused a lot of havoc, particularly in Latin America and in the Middle East. I'm also not saying that our intentions are always pure or humanitarian.

Nonetheless, much of the world turned to us for protection and stability after World War II and we obliged. Even if the intent was to build an empire and expand our power, we still provided that stability in many parts of the world.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #37)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:37 PM

101. You mean the multinational force in Rwanda the US deliberately hobbled?

UNAMIR, that one?

The one whose commander and senior officers, to say nothing of the rationale of the charter itself, desperately wanted to act, but were forbidden from doing so because Washington had an explicit policy of preventing anyone from engaging in humanitarian interventions in sub-Saharan Africa, and alternated between vetoing any attempt to do something and doing the tantrumy withhold-UN-funding-for-everything schtick it spent most of the nineties doing?

After all, "the only resource there is people, and there are too many of them anyway."

People with that attitude spent most of the 1990s doing their best to prevent the rest of the world from doing anything, and since the rest of the world had a bit of respect for international laws at the time that attitude had real power.

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Response to harun (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:01 AM

15. There is no evidence that the Free Syrian Army is really primarily made up of Syrians

The outside forces at work in this conflict make it incredibly hard to discern WHO is actually fighting - and for what. The tribal and religious sectarian forces within the region are tangled enough and now we have a layer of Turkish freedom fighters, Israeli covert operations aimed against Iran (which is helping Assad), and the cold war remnants of the US v Russia....

You cannot possibly say with ANY degree of certainty that this is just another "Arab Spring" type of revolution. That was never the case in Syria.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #15)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:28 PM

60. There's no evidence that the Syrian rebels are

 

primarily made up of outside forces.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #60)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:33 PM

62. +1.

That was the only logical response.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #60)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:09 PM

117. There's evidence they include outside forces. There's evidence they're armed by outside forces.

 

And there's a long history of covert operations being used to destabilize & topple regimes we & the UK don't like.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #117)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:51 PM

128. I'm for toppling murderous dictators.

 

Some of the dictators were put in power by the United States. The rest were supported by the Soviet Union and China. Doesn't supporting them now for purely ideological reasons bother you just a little?

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #128)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:19 PM

137. lol. sure you are.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #137)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:30 PM

163. What do you think my true motivations are?

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #163)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 12:50 AM

169. it's my secret.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #60)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:27 PM

142. Sure there is. I don't have a lot of time today to google but here's just one story from DU

from just a couple weeks ago about "rebel" fighters from Iraq.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014159827


Iranian special forces and military intelligence have been helping Syria for months now which means its only logical that Iraqi fighters have gone there in opposition.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:15 AM

9. Ermm... a "secret" ???

nt

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:18 AM

10. ...

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Response to n2doc (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:10 AM

21. sigh.....

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:21 AM

11. the order stops short of authorizing the arming of rebels directly

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Response to spanone (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:06 AM

18. Right. And those men in fatigues in Indochina? Merely "military advisors"! nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:12 PM

118. “Birmingham accents”

 

http://tehrantimes.com/middle-east/100107-uk-investigates-reports-of-britons-among-kidnappers-of-journalists-in-syria

The UK Foreign Office is investigating reports that British citizens are among fighters who kidnapped a British photographer and his Dutch colleague in northern Syria.

John Cantlie and Dutchman Jeroen Oerlemans were held by the group for a week after they accidentally came across their camp while crossing the border from south east Turkey to report on the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.

Both were shot and slightly wounded when they attempted to flee barefoot. They were freed on Thursday night after a group of Free Syrian Army soldiers turned up the camp and angrily demanded that they be released.

Cantlie has not yet spoken of his ordeal, but Mr. Oerlemans told Dutch media that some of the gang, which is reported to have been between 30 and 100 strong, had “Birmingham accents”.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:05 AM

17. It looks like Obama's campaign will coincide with a new military adventure... nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #17)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:08 AM

19. Incredible isn't it?? Horrific. nt

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:08 AM

20. Well crap.......

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:47 AM

22. I've been trying to understand this, but I can't. He must know something we don't.

 

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #22)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:44 AM

34. I'm pretty sure the President knows something Madhound does not.

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #34)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:02 PM

72. No need to know anything mysterious here.

This was recommended by the PNAC, and it is happening right on schedule.

Blood for profit is bipartisan.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #34)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:46 PM

105. Or any of the rest of us. He is NOT a warmonger like the shrub.

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #34)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:51 PM

109. That's what much of the media said about Bush and Iraq.

They were wrong.

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #109)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:58 PM

114. yeh, like Bush and Obama are the same person.

 

I guess you didn't notice they have very different styles of leadership.

but you go ahead and believe Obama is working for PNAC like fucking creep ass Bush.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:48 AM

23. Just what the neocon-PNACers told us to do. Right on schedule. nt

 

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Response to nanabugg (Reply #23)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:59 PM

70. +1 Blood for profit is bipartisan. nt

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Response to nanabugg (Reply #23)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:13 PM

84. I thought we were supposed to hit Iran next according to their schedule.

And then on to the rest of the world.

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Response to Lasher (Reply #84)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:45 PM

104. Iran's just not going to happen. Would've figured people would get that by now. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #104)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:01 PM

115. So, how soon do you think we'll hit Iran?

Before the November election, I'll bet.

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Response to Lasher (Reply #115)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:20 PM

122. Tell me one I haven't heard scores of times every year for the past eleven. (nt)

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:31 AM

27. Can't leftists ever argue with facts

 

instead of inventing things to support their claims?

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #27)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:33 AM

29. Is that sarcasm

 

Or do you not think the article is factual?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #29)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:00 PM

45. I'm sure the article is true but not your claim

 

that we're invading Syria.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #45)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:04 PM

49. We are sending arms, money and drones to Syria,

 

The drones will be under direct control of the US, they will remain USAF drones. Thus, our Air Force will be violating the sovereignty of a nation. That is, by definition, an invasion, though nowhere in my OP did I use that word.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #49)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:12 PM

54. The article doesn't mention drones.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #54)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:03 PM

73. How much do you want to bet that drones will be included?

 

How much do you want to bet that they aren't already there.

Stop being so naive.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #73)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:10 PM

80. We don't give people drones.

 

We fly them.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #80)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:12 PM

83. D'uh!

 

And we'll fly them in Syria as well. Thus violating sovereignty, invading a country, etc. etc.

Want to place any bets on that? Yeah, that's about what I thought.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #83)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:19 PM

89. Do I want to place a bet on speculation?

 

I don't know if we'll use surveillance drones in Syria and neither do you.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #89)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:24 PM

95. Speculation, educated guess, gut feeling based on our past actions,

 

Call it what you will. In my perception, all indications are yes. We will be sending in drones.

Oh, wait, the drones are already there, have been for six months or more.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/feb2012/syri-f20.shtml
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/120218/us-drones-monitoring-syria-crackdown-china-zhai-jun

No need for speculation, we're already violating Syrian sovereignty. Good thing you didn't take me up on that bet.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #95)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:34 PM

99. Why would I want to bet?

 

It doesn't surprise me that we're flying surveillance drones over Syria. That's a far cry from using them to fire missiles.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #99)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:38 PM

102. YOU DON'T GET IT,

 

We are violating their sovereignty just by flying them into Syria for whatever reason.

Or should we just let China and Russia send intelligence gathering planes over the US? Wait, wouldn't that violate our sovereignty?

I'm done arguing with you, it is pointless since you apparently don't have the educational, historical and foreign relations background to put forth a cognizant argument. I'm better off watching women's badmitten.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #102)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:48 PM

106. China and Russia use satellites to monitor us.

 

Enjoy badminton.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #102)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:18 PM

120. When that's over, you could watch women's badminton

Tell me again about your educational superiority....

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Response to MadHound (Reply #102)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:56 PM

129. "I'm better off watching women's badmitten." Now you've moved to sexism, and misspelling sexism...

at that. Tell me, since you keep disparaging the intelligence of those who differ with you, do they place any academic premium on spelling in the ivory tower from whence you speak? Who looks foolish now?


"Badmitten", AFAIK, is not a word. And for women badminton players the world over, I apologize on your behalf.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #83)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 09:57 AM

173. Only a couple though...I would use drones..

really good way to get intelligence without having feet on the ground. Just because you are flying a remote control plane doesn't mean you have to shoot at shit with it. I've done it for years

Don't be mad, we'll make sure the dollars of your tax money get spent on food for refugees!

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Response to MadHound (Reply #73)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:46 PM

126. A bit of a slip up there? I understand though, your righteous indignation got the better of you.


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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:33 AM

30. Nobel Peace Prize!

More War! More War! More War! I love this country!

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Response to agent46 (Reply #30)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:35 PM

63. Nobel Peace Prize. What a fucking joke.

Blood for profit does not change from administration to administration.

Have we had enough yet, America?

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #63)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:25 PM

140. Well, I've had enough of something alright.

His Nobel prize was for his work in securing loose nukes, nowhere in the ballpark of what you have gratuitously saddled and ridden across these boards.

The Syrians are getting their asses kicked by superior weaponry. Do you support the piles of dead civilians? Not me. I'm glad they're getting some assistance to try to level the playing field. It's the least we as a nation could do.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #140)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:52 PM

145. Yeah, yeah, we know. It's ALL about the civilians.

That's exactly what we used to hear from Republicans under Bush.

War policies, like economic and police state policies, do not change significantly from administration to administration anymore. Follow the corporate money.

Anyone who has been paying attention knew this was coming long ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1062459

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #145)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:02 PM

146. From my perspective, it * IS * all about the civilians.

They must have slipped your mind.

That happens when your focus is putting a butthurt on this administration and little else.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #146)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:13 PM

148. Uh huh.

How many times have we they done this? With what results?

This is not just about Obama. It is about a corrupt and purchased foreign policy that extends far beyond any single politician and continues from administration to administration...

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #148)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:24 PM

152. I don't have an "RNC-approved textbook." Do you?

That would certainly explain your strategic focus on tearing down this administration with as much zeal as that coming from the teabaggers. You've got to twist yourself into a pretzel to ignore the plight of the Syrian civilians to get your shiv into this administration. You have become transparent in that regard.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #152)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:35 PM

153. Nope. Bad analogy.

Those of us who have paid attention to history opposed these wars of choice under Bush, and we continue to do so under Obama. It's about policy, not politicians.

I believe it was the Teabaggers who twisted themselves into knots trying to justify whatever their President happened to be doing at any particular moment.

You may have the last word if you like, but please spare us the sanctimony about "helping" civilians. We have seen this "helping" played out too many times, and in too many places, to eat those particular peas...

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #153)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 05:45 PM

156. lol ... speaking of self-aggrandizement

this should make the reach easier for you ...

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #156)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 11:20 AM

179. !!!!

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:37 AM

31. It is becoming very clear that the Assad regime is going to fall.

That is when politicians take sides.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:02 PM

47. Unrec

Nothing in the story validates the misleading title.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:03 PM

48. Maybe he should call them "Contras" to justify us getting involved in another civil war.

Worked for Reagan. Maybe Ollie North is available to help out.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #48)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:51 PM

66. +1000

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #48)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:45 PM

125. Ollie was on Fox today talking about how Iran is the real target.

He was with that Ralph Peters dude, who was suggesting that the Alawites will end up having to leave Syria.

Gotta love Fox, warmongering and cheerleading for ethnic cleansing.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:05 PM

50. I agree with you and Assad, let him slaughter his own citizens and we should do nothing.

After all, what's a few hundred thousand dead Syrian civilians, none of whom you know personally, right?

If they can't oust a murderous dictator all by themselves, we should just sit by and let it happen.

Good thing the French didn't sit on the sidelines during our Revolution, or all of our money would have Queen Elizabeth's picture on it today.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #50)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:10 PM

52. Good thing the British didn't jump in on the side of the Confederacy,

 

Then we would have been split into at least two, if not more, countries.

Nice to see that you agree with continuing to spend all our money on the MIC while our own people are dying daily from want here at home.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #52)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:11 PM

82. NIce to see you have used at least four different Straw Men arguments in this thread.

You remain true to your tactics.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #82)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:15 PM

86. Nice to see you have nothing substantial in your reply,

 

And thus throw out the strawman accusation. Wait, weren't you the one who brought up something about the French, and money with the Queen's picture on it? Isn't that a *gasp* strawman according to your very loose definition?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #86)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:22 PM

92. I am glad that the Syrian people will have the means at their disposal to fight Assad.

But if you want to side with Batista against The Cuban People, go right ahead.


Oops, my bad, wrong Revolution.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #92)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:48 PM

127. Which Syrian people? The country is deeply divided.

A few months ago, Nir Rosen traveled through Syria, talked to all sides, and wrote that about 30% wanted rid of Assad, about 30% supported the regime, and about 40% wanted reforms but not at the price of civil war. It looks like about two-thirds of "the Syrian people" are not with the armed rebels.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:08 PM

51. We tried to help in Afghanistan in the 80's

We got Osama bin Laden for our efforts. Unless we can be reasonably certain bad actors aren't going to ride in on the coattails of those we're helping we could be repeating that same mistake.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:20 PM

55. Gee, is anyone surprised?

Economic, war, and police state policies don't change from administration to administration. Both parties shed blood for profit and feed the MIC.

Wake the hell up, America.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:30 PM

61. No matter how bad the situation is, we can always make it worse.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 12:42 PM

64. DU Rec

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:06 PM

75. Had enough yet, America? nt

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:10 PM

79. Juan Cole: Obama signed finding to help Syria Uprising

The Syrian opposition continued to hang on in the northern commercial center of Aleppo on Thursday, and even launched a daring new raid. Rebels used a tank they captured to attack the Menagh air force base near Aleppo. They are attempting to forestall its use by the regime to launch helicopter gunship and jet attacks on rebel positions in the city. The rebels say that some troops from the armored division have defected and brought their tanks with them.

The BBC speaks of a ‘stalemate’ in Aleppo, , with the regime so far unable to oust the rebels from key neighborhoods. I was told by a young activist from Aleppo, in telephone contact with family & friends, that the rebels were taking new neighborhoods and police stations. That these actions were being taken mid-week was confirmed from Aleppo by Kim Sengupta. The fighters appear to hope to take and keep Aleppo, which can be resupplied easily with arms via the Turkish border.

CNN and CBS reported that President Obama had some time ago signed a presidential finding allowing the CIA and other US personnel to give advice and organizational help to the rebels. The US appears not to be supplying arms, though Qatar and Saudia are. The latter seem to have upped their game recently, with rebels getting good resupply.

A Jordanian op-ed writer warns that the regime response has militarized the revolution in ways bad for democracy.

http://www.juancole.com/2012/08/obama-signed-finding-to-help-syria-uprising.html

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Response to pampango (Reply #79)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:19 PM

90. That agrees with my OP

 

"Though the order stops short of authorizing the arming of rebels directly, it was noted that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey -- all US allies in the region and beneficiaries of large US arms deals -- are coordinating closely with US operatives and the Syrian opposition forces."

And my OP provides a bit more clarity. But hey, thanks for the second source.

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Response to pampango (Reply #79)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:54 PM

111. Thank you for this post. nt

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:21 PM

91. If it's a "secretive order", how the hell did common dreams find out about it?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:55 PM

112. LISTEN TO ME!! OBAMA IS TEH EVL!!

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Response to Robb (Reply #112)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:05 PM

116. Thanks for clearing that up....

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Response to Robb (Reply #112)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:04 PM

131. If you read it on the internet it must be true.

 

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:56 PM

113. I really think of us, the Obama voters, who won the Peace Prize, not Obama

it was such a big affirmative change for the US from the viewpoint of Old Europe, they just had to pat us on the back and urge us to live up to the Prize.

However, we are so much like the Roman Empire that it's alittle silly to think of us as peacemakers. We roam the earth stealing democracy and freedom from people. Obama is just the unluck guy who has to make decisions for that martial entity.

It could have been worse, far worse. Think of a McCain in charge of our empire. At least Obama has a clue.

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Response to librechik (Reply #113)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:09 PM

134. You view the Assad and Gaddafi regimes

 

as representing democracy and freedom?

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #134)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:25 PM

139. I was referring to earlier US efforts to end democracy, i.e., Iraq and in Palestine, earlier still

Iran, Cuba and Chile, among others.

I frankly can't see suppressing democracy as an Obama goal, not in comparison to the Bushies. But he's still in charge of the Empire, like it or not. And it keeps rolling on crushing people, no matter that we claim the opposite. After all, Obama is the Drone President, and drones are awfully good at depriving individuals of their liberty--as well as their lives.

I do appreciate his efforts at downsizing. One wonders if any control can ever be asserted over the Global hegemony, no matter how brilliant the one doing the asserting. It's almost inhuman.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:15 PM

119. According to Hersh the rebels are muslim brotherhood.

 

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:19 PM

121. “Seven countries in five years”

 

...a tantalizing passage in Wesley Clark’s new memoir suggests that another war is part of a long-planned Department of Defense strategy that anticipated “regime change” by force in no fewer than seven Mideast states. Critics of the war have often voiced suspicions of such imperial schemes, but this is the first time that a high-ranking former military officer has claimed to know that such plans existed...

In “A Time to Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country,” published by Palgrave Macmillan last month, the former four-star general recalls two visits to the Pentagon following the terrorist attacks of September 2001. On the first visit, less than two weeks after Sept. 11, he writes, a “senior general” told him, “We’re going to attack Iraq. The decision has basically been made.”

Six weeks later, Clark returned to Washington to see the same general and inquired whether the plan to strike Iraq was still under consideration. The general’s response was stunning:

“‘Oh, it’s worse than that,’ he said, holding up a memo on his desk. ‘Here’s the paper from the Office of the Secretary of Defense outlining the strategy. We’re going to take out seven countries in five years.’ And he named them, starting with Iraq and Syria and ending with Iran.”

http://www.salon.com/2007/10/12/wesley_clark/

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #121)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:08 PM

132. "ending with Iran"

Poke, poke, poke, poke...


Obama Order Sped Up Wave of Cyberattacks Against Iran
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=133591

US imposes new sanctions on Iran oil sector 7/31/12
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014181932

Reuters: Signs build that Iran sanctions disrupt food imports
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101447252

Impact of Iran Sanctions Widens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101489853

Iranian banks cut off from SWIFT system
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=438286

Navy Chief: U.S. to Bring 'Sawed-Off Shotgun' to Persian Gulf
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/1002431465

U.S. Amasses Stealth-Jet Armada Near Iran April 2012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002623901

US Aides in Israel: All Options on the Table re: Iran
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1133395

Hillary Clinton issues new Iran warning on Israel visit
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014168022

Panetta: Israel Strike In Iran Will Engage US
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101487406

US Rejected Iran Nuclear Offer in 2005
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002775680

U.S. Agencies See No Move by Iran to Build a Bomb Feb 2012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101460131

Dennis Kucinich: US 'sanction warfare' makes real Iran war inevitable
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101730434

Plans to strike Iran "ready", says U.S. Israel envoy May 2012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002695900

The demonization of Iran
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002319475

"Each star marks a US millitary base, but just so we're all clear: Iran is threatening us"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2456137

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #132)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:12 PM

135. you got it. Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and iran. and all the war hawks at DU seem

 

to have selective amnesia everytime the new target comes into view.

"he's killing his own people!"

yeah, they're all killing their own people. like the us wouldn't kill its own people if china started funding terrorist groups here.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #135)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:58 PM

154. No shit.



God, this bloody song gets old, doesn't it.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #135)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 05:21 PM

155. k

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #121)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:30 PM

143. You do know that's a 5 year-old article, right?...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #143)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:46 PM

144. yes, sid, i know.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #121)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 12:30 PM

181. My daughter was a few weeks old when my brother flew out to meet his ship in the Gulf

That was gulf war 1, then a couple years later he was off the coast of Somalia, never went to Afghanistan, but he was pulled out of retirement to go to Iraq for a year, my daughter was then 16 and marched with me in DC while her uncle was there, now she is turning 22- Looking back it shocks me that her entire life we have been in one war or another.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:28 PM

123. well it might bring peace & he did have success in Libya

but we need to work harder on the other side that is supporting the Syrian leader and get everyone to stand down. We do not know what is going on behind the scenes. This is a very dangerous situation in Syria and we need to let our President work it out. That is why he gets the big bucks.

Another reason why big bucks shouldn't buy the Presidency.

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Response to ThomThom (Reply #123)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:18 PM

136. depends on what you mean by "success". our media isn't much for reporting the aftermath

 

after all the breathless coverage of khaddafi "killing his own people".

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #136)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:37 PM

165. Are you saying he didn't kill his own people?

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #165)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 12:43 AM

168. They're still "killing their own people" in Libya today.

 

Fighting between government forces and tribal fighters in the southern Libyan town of Kufra has continued for a second day, officials said.

At least 16 people have died since the clashes began on Saturday, with women and children among the dead.

Libya's government has been struggling to maintain security since the ousting of Muammar Gaddafi last year.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-18386836

Khaddafi killed 'rebels' (funded by the west).

Like all States kill 'rebels'.




Monument erected at Jackson State to murdered students James Earl Green
and Phillip Lafayette Gibbs.






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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:39 PM

124. From whence comes the idea that the Nobel Peace Prize

Is for those who never ever use military force? What kind of national leader could possibly do so, except for a very lucky one, during whose tenure no unfortunate events occurred anywhere in the world?

Are you stating that to deserve the peace prize, Obama, as President, should never ever use our military force in any situation? Are you absolutely sure we would be completely safe if we did absolutely nothing anywhere in the world?

And is this not a sympathetic cause? When the Arab Spring first started, in Egypt, DU was full of posts condemning Obama for not sending the troops to help those seeking freedom immediately, even though they were tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm starting to see a theme here. Obama is wrong no matter what. If he were doing nothing, if not yourself, some DUer would be posting about how awful Obama was for letting Assad kill his people and not helping.

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Response to treestar (Reply #124)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:03 PM

130. +1000. Notice it's always the same group, the issue doesn't really matter. "Obama Bad"!

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #130)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:24 PM

185. Yup ... another example of the diametrically opposed "Obama Bad" memes.

The RW version is ... "Obama is a weak appeaser who apologizes to our enemies and emboldens them". Its designed to anger and motivate the RW to vote.

The LW version is ... "Obama is a war monger like Bush, maybe worse, and he's started about 9 new wars since he took office." This one is designed to frustrate and demotivate the LW from voting.

The media, doesn't care which OBAMA BAD message one internalizes, just so they internalize ONE of them.

In reality, both are ridiculous caricatures, and neither reflects reality ... regardless, the messages are used to push the right and the left towards positions that help Romney and hurt Obama.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:09 PM

133. They need to free up Syrian air space...

For the war on Stalingrad....um, Iran.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:22 PM

138. Syrians are getting pummeled by superior weaponry.

I have no problem with arming the "rebel forces."
It rather levels (albeit not completely) the playing field.
Your fauxrage (bad Obama bad) not withstanding.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:26 PM

141. What could possibly go wrong? See Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Honduras, Congo, etc for precedents.

And, countless others who benefited from our "help".

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #141)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:03 PM

147. More blood. More blood. More blood.

More profit.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #141)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:25 PM

162. See Kosovo.

 

See Bosnia.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)


Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:00 PM

157. He was chivvied into this one by NATO

and I have a feeling the support will be the same as was done in Libya:air support to clip the dictator's wings and weapons and ammo for the rebels on the ground.

I don't think "we're going into Syria" is quite accurate.

Assad is scum. He needs to go. I think Russia has finally recognized this and is no longer blocking NATO's ability to help get him out of power. Too many of his generals have fled and there is just no practical way to keep him on top.

It will, of course, cost billions. It would be much better spent domestically. However, the bombs and other munitions represent money already squandered on war. When the national will finally is against replacing them, we'll be able to free up the money to spend here.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:05 PM

158. Libya Redux.

How about we just recycle all the arguments from then, and just post cat pictures or something now? Is there much that can be added to the argument?

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #158)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 11:04 PM

166. OK

 

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:11 PM

159. when we blow people and shit and stuff up or support those that do it is always righteous...

because we are free!

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:24 PM

160. Ah Commondreams...BBI's BFF.

Speculation, even from the left is still just that.

I'm fine with this. Liberals don't have to be uber pacifists. Even those who have won the NPP.

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Response to great white snark (Reply #160)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:31 PM

161. Ah, BBI....



And I agree with your post.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 10:35 PM

164. knr nt

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 12:21 PM

180. It's a tough call to make

Would it be better or worse to be involved in assisting the rebels? The question is of the ultimate price, in lives and in resources. Will things end better as a result of our interference? Will less innocents die? Can we do something noble here, something good... and what are the chances that we can accomplish it? I'm no no historian and certainly no prophet. I have studied history though... which leads me to believe that whatever the short term results of our interference, in the long run.... unless we stay the course and remain dedicated in financing the rebuilding of what is destroyed.... well, we'll have another Osama Bin Laden, or twenty of them, or one hundred, in the making.

If we're going to stay out of it, we should stay out of it completely. As we aren't doing that, I believe we then have an obligation to assist in cleaning up whatever is left of Syria when this war finally comes to an end. The reasons for this should be obvious - greater good will towards America from the Syrians, the possibility of a peaceful relationship with a Nation we have long had issues with.

However... if we do as we did in Afghanistan during the Soviet disaster (finance the war, the weapons... and then bail)... this will end badly. We will have succeeded in doing nothing more than creating the terrorists of tomorrow. Is Washington smart enough to learn this from history? Is our President? I can only hope so.

No war can go on forever. When it ends, schools will need rebuilding, roads will need rebuilding. Much of Syria will need rebuilding. Granted... our own Nation could use a great deal of that as well. Perhaps though, in helping others, we will ultimately receive help in return. Other Nations have offered us help in the past, in times of Crisis (Katrina, for instance). Generally the US has rudely shrugged off offers of help. We can no longer afford to do so.

If there is one thing America and it's leadership needs (other than a better understanding of it's populace) it's to reduce the hubris and learn just a little humility. If we're to help, then let's help... but let's really help. Not just by assisting the rebels, but by rebuilding what is destroyed using our weapons.

Bah. Chances are we'll fuck up the end game like we always do... but I truly I hope we don't.

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