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47of74

(18,470 posts)
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:49 PM Jul 2012

Inmates cooked to death in Texas prisons

Sigh.

HOUSTON—After you walk past the guard towers and razorwire-topped fences and walk into a Texas prison, one of the many things you can’t help noticing on a summer day is how many inmates walk around in their underwear. And after a few minutes walking around the concrete and steel cell blocks, you realize why: the temperature.

“(It’s) hot,” said State Sen. John Whitmire, D-Houston. “I was hot.”

So hot it’s killing Texas prison inmates, prison activists said. During July and August of last year at least ten inmates died heat-related deaths, they said, and all of them lived in cells that were not air conditioned.

“The old, the weak, the infirm, people with other complications like liver cancer, hepatitis-C related stuff, have been dying from heat prostration for some time,” said Ray Hill, a prison activist and longtime host of a radio show on prison issues.

Dozens of Texans died during the heat wave that swept the state last year. The numbers vary, depending on whose count you want to believe, but the National Weather Service concluded that 46 Texans died of heat-related causes during 2011.


Above Democrat was saying how they didn't have the money for AC. My suggestion would be to remove AC from the capitol building and the governor's residence and see how fast these idiots find the money.
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Inmates cooked to death in Texas prisons (Original Post) 47of74 Jul 2012 OP
imo pepito Jul 2012 #1
So every inmate is a murderer? Avalux Jul 2012 #3
I think he was talking about the state of Texas preventing the inmates from dying. BlueJazz Jul 2012 #7
Thanks, I stand corrected. Avalux Jul 2012 #8
I agree, it is murder when the inmates die of heat exposure. SalviaBlue Jul 2012 #136
Welcome to DU demwing Jul 2012 #151
Damn Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #2
That's what we are now. begin_within Jul 2012 #33
+20,407 Angry Dragon Jul 2012 #41
Texas has always been a third world country maindawg Jul 2012 #143
Uhhh, what? RZM Aug 2012 #162
Texas may well be one already.... lastlib Jul 2012 #126
+1 redqueen Jul 2012 #138
Texas. Institutionalized murder. Baitball Blogger Jul 2012 #4
Get a grip cbrer Jul 2012 #5
You could also go outside and catch a breeze if you got too hot.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #10
You are quite the humanitarian... Earth_First Jul 2012 #14
You are postulating a right to air conditioning? cbrer Jul 2012 #17
I believe that you assume that assumption.... Earth_First Jul 2012 #19
Article said nothing cbrer Jul 2012 #24
You've done a superb job of outing yourself as an individual in support of classist bigotry... Earth_First Jul 2012 #26
People like that chervilant Jul 2012 #37
You and your buddies may believe that cbrer Jul 2012 #45
dude chill smoke a J or something snooper2 Jul 2012 #76
:) pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #86
I posted about this last year. It's not in the news much. Th1onein Jul 2012 #93
Well said. nt redqueen Jul 2012 #139
Many people have died without air conditioning (& heat). pacalo Jul 2012 #99
ok here's a fact booley Jul 2012 #118
How hot does it get in a jail cell in Texas during a heat wave? The Doctor. Jul 2012 #122
hey asshole! how many of those folks without AC are wards of the state? frylock Jul 2012 #134
how many deaths MrDiaz Jul 2012 #104
Great argument--others die from other causes, so why worry about these preventable deaths? pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #108
what is your solution MrDiaz Jul 2012 #110
Best thing about your post: "furthur!" :) pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #115
Bail money? MrDiaz Jul 2012 #116
So don't protest against anything, either Patiod Jul 2012 #121
May you find yourself in jail one day. EOTE Jul 2012 #124
I HAVE BEEN MrDiaz Jul 2012 #127
One day, and that was enough. EOTE Jul 2012 #128
well MrDiaz Jul 2012 #129
Actually, the prison system has been sued because they didn't prevent a rape that resulted in AIDS. Th1onein Jul 2012 #149
lol MrDiaz Aug 2012 #155
Not only were they sued; they LOST the lawsuit and had to pay up. Th1onein Aug 2012 #156
point taken MrDiaz Aug 2012 #157
If it takes a life it shouldn't take, then it is more important. Period. Th1onein Aug 2012 #164
So... pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #28
Reason for death cbrer Jul 2012 #44
That's a whole lot of denial right there. Wow. Zalatix Jul 2012 #55
Still assuming I see cbrer Jul 2012 #60
C'mon, they were frail. Not the prison's fault. pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #61
Forcing conclusions gets you just as far cbrer Jul 2012 #63
The Prison Industrial complex now even has the help of amateur public relations experts. Zalatix Jul 2012 #65
"Unpaid" remains an open question. nt pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #66
Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #71
"Loser"? I guess I'm getting to you pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #77
Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #70
FYI.. namecalling is against the rules here. Zalatix Jul 2012 #82
No sweat, Z pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #84
And what facts have you brought to the "battle"? pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #83
Well done dreamnightwind Jul 2012 #91
+1 LiberalLoner Jul 2012 #114
Details demwing Jul 2012 #153
People are dying of heat stroke and the best you can come up with is "deal with it"? Seriously? Zalatix Jul 2012 #27
Seriously? You are assuming facts cbrer Jul 2012 #47
I am not ASSUMING anything. Zalatix Jul 2012 #53
Assuming cbrer Jul 2012 #56
So State Sen. John Whitmire is a liar and you know more than the activists who were actually there? Zalatix Jul 2012 #64
Facts please cbrer Jul 2012 #72
If a bunch of prisoners dead from heat stroke isn't a problem in your book then Zalatix Jul 2012 #80
The majority of the world isn't stuck inside tiny cell blocks with no airflow. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #88
I am certain that Professor Hawking would find your posts deeply offensive. girl gone mad Jul 2012 #142
Itl's cruel and unusual punishment demwing Jul 2012 #152
No one said anything about climate change. Kingofalldems Jul 2012 #21
Just trying to clarify article. cbrer Jul 2012 #43
That was no attempt to "clarify" pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #46
I understand you must force definitions in order to make your point cbrer Jul 2012 #50
BS. No definitions are being 'forced.' pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #59
Riiiight cbrer Jul 2012 #62
The silliness is all yours--own it pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #75
you are obviously MrDiaz Jul 2012 #105
So you think it's okay to put prisoners with those kinds of health conditions at risk? pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #107
no not defending MrDiaz Jul 2012 #109
Who claimed AC is a right? No one here. pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #111
HEY! Let me tell you a little secret: Th1onein Jul 2012 #150
Half baked conclusions are better than fully baked inmates demwing Jul 2012 #154
They just have not come for us yet. BlueinOhio Jul 2012 #23
Well said. classof56 Jul 2012 #40
Kasiach BlueinOhio Jul 2012 #42
If by 'coddle our prisoners' you mean not killing them with heat stroke, Doremus Jul 2012 #25
Animation cute cbrer Jul 2012 #51
No more than you are seriously suggesting that the majority of people in the world are incarcerated. Doremus Jul 2012 #146
have no AC MrDiaz Jul 2012 #106
Does he have windows? JNelson6563 Jul 2012 #112
is your 73 year-old grandfather free to leave his cell? frylock Jul 2012 #135
um yea MrDiaz Jul 2012 #137
No, we shouldn't coddle. Iggo Jul 2012 #48
Assuming facts not in evidence. cbrer Jul 2012 #52
This message was self-deleted by its author Iggo Jul 2012 #67
Welcome to DU. Iggo Jul 2012 #68
Not sure how to take that cbrer Jul 2012 #73
I don't understand what facts you need. noamnety Jul 2012 #100
Windows, fans & fresh water. JNelson6563 Jul 2012 #113
.. Stinky The Clown Jul 2012 #49
Infer is how you take something. Imply is how you mean something. pa28 Jul 2012 #57
'Preciate the red pen cbrer Jul 2012 #58
Eh. pa28 Jul 2012 #85
No such luck. :( But a good try, anyway. pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #92
wow. It's not about coddling. It's about NOT KILLING them. patrice Jul 2012 #79
You DO know that coddling and killing are the only two options here, right? annabanana Aug 2012 #163
We as a society can severely limit another's freedom by putting them behind bars in a small cell pacalo Jul 2012 #90
Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #94
I'll wager that no jury will hide you, nor will our Hosts ban you from this thread pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #97
Thanks. When I let 'er rip, that's usually a sign to me that I need to take a break. Been coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #98
After following Anaheim, no one can blame you for your mood pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #101
Looks like some gungeon people don't mind torture Kingofalldems Jul 2012 #117
I also noticed both of those with Free Republic-like opinions are gungeon dwellers Patiod Jul 2012 #123
jesus christ. did you live in a 8 x 8 concrete bloc too? did your parents force you to stay in HiPointDem Jul 2012 #95
How many poor and homeless people die from heat related illness? Puregonzo1188 Jul 2012 #132
"coddling" LWolf Jul 2012 #141
There's a DIFFERENCE. Th1onein Jul 2012 #148
You Weren't Old Or Infirm DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2012 #158
You have thoroughly made an ass of yourself in this thread. morningfog Aug 2012 #159
OK. Call me a "bleeding heart liberal", but I think to keep prisoners in un-airconditioned cells Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #6
I did live in one of those places Panasonic Jul 2012 #22
Bleeding Heart BlueinOhio Jul 2012 #30
I'm with you Nye Auntie Bush Jul 2012 #34
Leavenworth is called The Hot House. MrSlayer Jul 2012 #9
"It is what it is" toddwv Jul 2012 #11
+1 n/t Earth_First Jul 2012 #15
+2. pacalo Jul 2012 #96
+3 pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #102
If they weren't being given water then I agree. MrSlayer Jul 2012 #145
thats a great point maindawg Jul 2012 #144
America has no business in any other country sorefeet Jul 2012 #12
There's no a/c? OMG. nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #13
Or ventilation. Patiod Jul 2012 #119
WWJD? Glassunion Jul 2012 #130
Those with medical niceguy Jul 2012 #131
How do you get a body temp of 109 Patiod Aug 2012 #161
Sheriff Joe Arpaio keeps his inmates in a tent in Phoenix. panader0 Jul 2012 #16
The temps in Sheriff Joe's tents are reported to exceed 130 degrees in Summer pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #32
Should he be used as a standard of sound judgment? pacalo Jul 2012 #103
I spent 88 days in a Texas prison Panasonic Jul 2012 #18
I'm sorry for your ordeal. nt Auntie Bush Jul 2012 #35
Congratulations on getting out of there... pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #38
Many of the heartless GOP officials in TX may end up in a much hotter place. libinnyandia Jul 2012 #20
That can't be too soon for me! Auntie Bush Jul 2012 #39
I'm sure there'd be plenty of money if we let go all those in jail for possession 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #29
rick perry rockingirl Jul 2012 #31
maybe OWS should take this on. We could take to the streets demanding air conditioning crazyjoe Jul 2012 #36
"The test of a democracy Smilo Jul 2012 #54
+1000 Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #69
Omg! sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #74
More corporate downsizing by government. aquart Jul 2012 #78
Death as a punishment for a prostitution conviction. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2012 #81
They don't have enough money for the A.C. AND to make a profit. That's their problem. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #87
IMHO... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2012 #140
I spent summers Sgent Jul 2012 #89
And there you have it - fans and open windows. Patiod Jul 2012 #120
crab mentality booley Jul 2012 #125
kick. Get some air conditioners and some solar panels to run them. Liberal_in_LA Jul 2012 #133
I've never understood the mentality that says we have to treat convicted criminals like animals... markpkessinger Jul 2012 #147
Guys like Bush and Rick Perry... Hubert Flottz Aug 2012 #160
 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
162. Uhhh, what?
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:59 PM
Aug 2012

The median household income in Texas is about 47K, which is only 2K less than the national average.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/statemedian/

That puts it above most Western nations. It's many times higher than any third world country.

lastlib

(22,895 posts)
126. Texas may well be one already....
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:30 PM
Jul 2012

I know that there are a lot of good, decent, compassionate, thinking Texans (all of whom would be appalled by this), but unfortunately, they're not a majority in the legislature. I have a feeling that Texas legislators who fit that description caucus in a back closet.

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
5. Get a grip
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:06 PM
Jul 2012

I was raised in central Florida without air conditioning.

Or are you infering that global climate change has made this a more prevalent issue? No evidence was stated about over work or exposure.

We shouldn't abuse our prisoners, but neither should we coddle them. How many poor and homeless live without A/C?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
10. You could also go outside and catch a breeze if you got too hot..
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:17 PM
Jul 2012

I grew up in a hot and humid climate with no AC also, we slept on screened porches throughout the summer, even with 12 foot ceilings in the house it was just too damn hot to sleep otherwise..

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
14. You are quite the humanitarian...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:12 PM
Jul 2012

Regardless if they are guilty of crimes comitted against society, there are still human rights to adhere to.

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
17. You are postulating a right to air conditioning?
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:16 PM
Jul 2012

Put 'em outside under an overhang if necessary. With cots if req.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people in the world have no A/C.

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
19. I believe that you assume that assumption....
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:21 PM
Jul 2012

You made the comment "get a grip" and "we should no coddle" and I made the statement that these folks are still human beings regardless of their debt to society for whatever crimes committed.

Central air conditioning, no.

Large fans in day rooms or outdoors, perhaps.

Refuge from sweltering heat in which inmates are dying and access to cool water, absolutely.

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
24. Article said nothing
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:28 PM
Jul 2012

About lack of those items.

Also made the point that quite a few people in Texas died from heat related injuries outside of the prison system.

Get a grip.

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
26. You've done a superb job of outing yourself as an individual in support of classist bigotry...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:32 PM
Jul 2012

Anyone else you have issues with as being second-rate human beings worthy of death in your eyes...?

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
45. You and your buddies may believe that
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:51 PM
Jul 2012

Bullshit, but the majority of people in the world do not have A/C. And survive and thrive.

Pointing out facts is not bigotry.

The fact that you think facts are below consideration makes YOU a bigot.

Try it on. How does it feel?

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
93. I posted about this last year. It's not in the news much.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:11 AM
Jul 2012

These guys, some of them, are locked up 23 hours a day, and they do NOT have access to cold water. These guys are dying, literally, during the summer months. This is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't care WHAT crime you've commmitted, it's against the Eighth Amendment, and a violation of their civil rights.

We are not supposed to be a third world country. We are supposed to have justice in this country. And, if it takes air conditioning to keep these guys alive in the Texas triple digit heat, then we are required, by our own laws, to provide it. You can't lock someone up for 23 hours a day in triple digit temperatures, not give them access to cold water, and call that justice.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
99. Many people have died without air conditioning (& heat).
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:44 AM
Jul 2012

And if we put them behind bars, it's our responsibility to see that they are treated humanely.

booley

(3,855 posts)
118. ok here's a fact
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:18 AM
Jul 2012

people in prison do not have the freedom to leave and go outside when the inside gets too hot.if it gets too hot in thier cells, they have to wait for a prison official to do soemthing about it.

since when is not cooking people alive in the realm of coddeling?

 

The Doctor.

(17,266 posts)
122. How hot does it get in a jail cell in Texas during a heat wave?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:39 AM
Jul 2012



The fact that you refuse to consider facts in this case makes you BOTH a bigot AND ignorant.


The only bigot here is the douche that believes people should die just because a judge who may or may not be corrupt sentenced them to jail.

Now it would be my pleasure if that douche alerted on my post.
 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
104. how many deaths
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 06:03 AM
Jul 2012

total are in prisons every year around the country? I bet they far out weigh the amount of heat related deaths!

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
110. what is your solution
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:06 AM
Jul 2012

are you saying that a prisoner murdering another prisoner is not preventable? Or a prisoner raping another prisoner is not preventable? Well i know a way to prevent all of this. DO NOT GO TO JAIL. Maybe this will be yet another reason to not commit a crime. It's okay for me to not have insurance and not have air condition, or cable for that matter... but we MUST make sure that all criminals get these things because they deserve it! But I already know what you will say based on all the other remarks you have made on this subject, so there really isn't any reason to comment furthur! Unless of course you want to argue.
HAVE A NICE DAY!

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
115. Best thing about your post: "furthur!" :)
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:29 AM
Jul 2012

Ken Kesey is applauding in his grave.

I'm sure he'd also get a big kick out of your nostrum that if you don't want to die, "DO NOT GO TO JAIL."

It may be news to you, but someone who ends up in jail, for whatever reason, doesn't suddenly become sub-human.

I sympathise with your circumstances. But your mistake is allowing others to divide you from your brethren who also are suffering. The way things are today, you or I could easily be the ones confined behind those bars.

You got bail money? No? Then you may be confined, like the others, behind those bars--without ever having been convicted of a crime. And if you have health conditions, you're going to damn sure demand that the system attend to you while you're in its custody.

Is that so much to ask?

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
116. Bail money?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 10:08 AM
Jul 2012

No, I didn't have that luxury, did 2 yrs then out on parole. I never said that people who go to jail are somehow sub human. You my friend make alot of assumptions, and put alot of words in people's mouth. The truth is jail is not easy. Nor should it be, the experiences I have gained while in there, have left me NEVER wanting to return. And I will do everything possible to stay out.
Oh and if you don't mind me asking. Since you seem to know so much about prisoners and the system, have you every done any time, have you had to endure any of these conditions in which you speak?

Patiod

(11,816 posts)
121. So don't protest against anything, either
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:37 AM
Jul 2012

You're suggesting that someone who is locked up for protesting against war, inequality, Wall Street, abuses by police (Anaheim) or any other thing covered under our right to free assembly but denied by the authorities should just have "not gone to jail"? Really?

Not everyone in prison is a murderer. As someone stated above, there are lots of people in there for protesting, or for not paying fines they can't afford, or for other unavoidable offenses.

MrDiaz, honey, you are on the wrong board. There are plenty of place like yahoo or freerepublic that would welcome that particular brand of "logic". DU is not one of them.

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
124. May you find yourself in jail one day.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:45 AM
Jul 2012

So you can realize how utterly fucking disgusting your comments are. And don't believe for a second it couldn't happen to you. I wonder how it is that we as a country are so rapidly approaching a police state and then I see comments like yours and it all makes sense.

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
127. I HAVE BEEN
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:45 PM
Jul 2012

i spent 2 years in huntsville, tx at the HOLIDAY UNIT, i have stated this in other posts in the thread. I have endured summers and winters there with no heat and no AC, and all I am saying is that there are alot more other things that could be changed and air conditioning to me would not be at the top of this list. This is coming from someone who endured 2 years of these conditions, how many years have you endured? You obviously know alot about these types of situations!

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
128. One day, and that was enough.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:57 PM
Jul 2012

That you spent 2 years there and still could care less that prisoners are dying due to heat related ailments speaks very poorly of you.

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
129. well
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:25 PM
Jul 2012

its not that i dont care people are dying due to heat, but the number is so small that the other issues that exist in prison far outweigh that problem. People fear for their life for much more dangerous reasons in prison than lack of air conditioning! I understand that you do not realize this because you have not been in actual prison, if you spent 1 day in jail, it was probably a city jail which more than likely has air conditioning, alot less people, and alot less danger. I don't judge you for your opinion, so I do not appreciate when you judge me for mine. I had the experience and to me inmates aren't as worried about the heat as alot of people on the thread seem to think... they have alot more important things to worry and deal about other than the heat.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
149. Actually, the prison system has been sued because they didn't prevent a rape that resulted in AIDS.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 10:47 PM
Jul 2012

So, yes, they have a DUTY to care for the safety and well being of those in their charge. It's our law. Remember our law? Or does that not matter when it comes to people who make a mistake and end up in jail?

How many of us have NEVER committed a crime? Even a small one? And how many of those inmates are actually innocent? We've already seen it proven that many inmates on DEATH ROW are innocent of the crimes that they were convicted of; doesn't it stand to reason that there are even more in the general population that are innocent? What about them? Is it okay to cook THEM?

It's not about coddling anyone. It's about being responsible for people in your care. You lock them up, you have an obligation to protect them from dangers, not SUBJECT them to them.

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
155. lol
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 05:54 AM
Aug 2012

they were sued becuase they didn't prevent a single act of rape in which resulted in AIDS? That happens ALOT more than you seem to think, maybe not AIDS but the act of rape. I will tell you what i told everyone else, I did 2 years, and on my "making prisons better" to do list... AC isn't as high up as everyone here seems to think. But you are entitled to your opinion as am I. Have a nice day.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
156. Not only were they sued; they LOST the lawsuit and had to pay up.
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 09:21 AM
Aug 2012

Look, what difference does it make whether it's rape that causes someone to get a disease that kills them, or the lack of adequate air conditioning that causes someone to die? These people are still in our custodial care and we have an obligation to them.

What we are doing to them is inhumane. It's that simple.

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
157. point taken
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 09:36 AM
Aug 2012

but like I said there are more prevelant things that we can worry about... but i see your point

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
164. If it takes a life it shouldn't take, then it is more important. Period.
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:18 PM
Aug 2012

And it is doing that. In the end, it costs you and me money, in taxes, to fight these suits, and more when we lose them, and we WILL lose them. Why not just do the right thing, on the front end, and treat these people humanely?

I'm right there with you that we can't solve every single problem overnight, but when we find one that can be solved without extra manpower, which is the highest cost of maintaining prisons, why not do it?

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
28. So...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:35 PM
Jul 2012
“The old, the weak, the infirm, people with other (health) complications..." (from the OP) dying in the heat is no problem, because we wouldn't want to "coddle" them?
 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
44. Reason for death
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:47 PM
Jul 2012

May have been frailty. Not lack of environmental protection. Also didn't classify anything as problem or not. You have to make quite a leap to assume it was a prison condition rather than poor health.

If you form opinions from incomplete data, that's not the worlds fault.

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
60. Still assuming I see
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:28 AM
Jul 2012

Not denying wrong exists. Not jumping with outrage from incomplete set of facts.

Gee how unreasonable...

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
63. Forcing conclusions gets you just as far
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:41 AM
Jul 2012

Why is it such a crime to suggest that the death rate at that facility might be roughly equal to the civilian population?

The original author might be trying to stir up support for a phony cause and get his name in the public eye.

If so, he certainly succeeded with this group.

 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
65. The Prison Industrial complex now even has the help of amateur public relations experts.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:46 AM
Jul 2012

Unpaid, no less.

Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #66)

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
77. "Loser"? I guess I'm getting to you
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:19 AM
Jul 2012

You have been ignoring facts, not arguing them, from the get-go. What facts have you brought here? Oh yeah, that's right...none.

Response to Zalatix (Reply #65)

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
84. No sweat, Z
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:31 AM
Jul 2012

I didn't alert, and I hope no one else does, either. Some things should be left as they are.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
83. And what facts have you brought to the "battle"?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:27 AM
Jul 2012

Actually, I confess that I didn't know it was a 'battle,' I thought it was a discussion among fellow members here. But when you stake out an outrageous, inhumane position, you have to know that it will be contentious.

But do not think we are joking--we are deadly serious about the value of life and the responsibility to protect and preserve it.

 

demwing

(16,916 posts)
153. Details
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:22 PM
Jul 2012
Now, some relatives of Texas convicts who died during the heat wave are going to court, arguing that high temperatures inside prison cells violate the constitution’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment. They point to state records indicating that heat indexes outside at least one prison last year surpassed 150 degrees. And they’ve obtained autopsy documents detailing agonizing deaths inside sweltering prison cells.
 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
27. People are dying of heat stroke and the best you can come up with is "deal with it"? Seriously?
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:35 PM
Jul 2012
 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
47. Seriously? You are assuming facts
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:53 PM
Jul 2012

Not in evidence. But don't let that get in the way of your outrage over sensationalistic journalism.

 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
53. I am not ASSUMING anything.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:15 AM
Jul 2012
So hot it’s killing Texas prison inmates, prison activists said. During July and August of last year at least ten inmates died heat-related deaths, they said, and all of them lived in cells that were not air conditioned.

Are you calling them liars? You've got nothing, except disdain for activists who care about human rights.

THIS IS AMERICA, NOT CHINA.

Not all of those prisoners are there because they're GUILTY. Especially not in TEXAS which has one of the highest if not the highest post-conviction exoneration rate in the country.
 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
56. Assuming
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:19 AM
Jul 2012

1. Prisoner death rate different from general public for that health group.

2. No other complications existed.

3. No protection from heat existed.

No disdain either. Many abuses exist. God forbid we should get the facts before hitting the caps. lock.

 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
64. So State Sen. John Whitmire is a liar and you know more than the activists who were actually there?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:45 AM
Jul 2012

You should be a private investigator. Or a PR specialist.

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
72. Facts please
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:09 AM
Jul 2012

Repeating oneself makes for a boring thread.

Can we identify an actual problem before leaping? Just once? Please?

 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
80. If a bunch of prisoners dead from heat stroke isn't a problem in your book then
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:26 AM
Jul 2012

perhaps you have a problem.

 

demwing

(16,916 posts)
152. Itl's cruel and unusual punishment
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:17 PM
Jul 2012

and you've got Dick Cheney's heart.

Is this how you get kicks?

Kingofalldems

(38,314 posts)
21. No one said anything about climate change.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:23 PM
Jul 2012

Sounds like something Rush Limbaugh would say. So not letting a prisoner die is coddling?

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
43. Just trying to clarify article.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:42 PM
Jul 2012

Prisoners die every day. The salient issue is whether or not adequate heat protection was provided to prisoners.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
46. That was no attempt to "clarify"
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:51 PM
Jul 2012

"Get a grip" and questioning "coddling" of prisoners clearly amounted to an opposing statement.

If you want to reconsider now, that's perfectly reasonable. But don't try to reconstrue those statements as something other than what they were.

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
50. I understand you must force definitions in order to make your point
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:06 AM
Jul 2012

But facts stand on their own. And they're lacking in the OP.

Coddling was and is possible when people who go off without the facts create policy.

Or post on public forums.

Or are you seriously going to postulate that the majority of people in the world are being mistreated/abused?

Not reconstruing either. OP stands as is.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
59. BS. No definitions are being 'forced.'
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:27 AM
Jul 2012

The OP clearly identified elderly and infirm, and others with health conditions, as part of the prison population (which shouldn't be surprising to you). They are in a custodial relationship in which the prison authorities are responsible for their health and well-being.

Arguing that, because others in the world lack adequate health care and proper protections, custodians of prisoners have no responsibility to provide humane care and conditions, is just mind-boggling.

Keep digging that hole deeper!

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
62. Riiiight
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:35 AM
Jul 2012

So if the prison population is suffering equivalent percentage of deaths as an unincarcerated population we should be outraged?

We should insist on a higher standard of environmental protection than what the majority of the world enjoys?

We should assume no other conditions existed?

We should further assume no protection was being given?

Keep forcing it. Silliness and half baked conclusions are all part of your view. Rather than identifying and fixing true problems, you jump off a cliff of partial knowledge.

Or is asking questions beyond reason?

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
75. The silliness is all yours--own it
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:15 AM
Jul 2012

You're suggesting that people under custodial care--and prison health care--should suffer the same adverse consequences as someone in the third world who has no health care.

And I especialy love your argument that we should have no higher environmental standard than the lowest in the world.

Your whole argument is BS, and you've fallen into a trap of your own making.

You haven't been asking questions, you've taken a position. If you want to ask questions, research the issue and come back with facts, not smoke.

If you at least had SOMETHING, you might not have gotten so beat up here.

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
105. you are obviously
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 06:22 AM
Jul 2012

Very worried about the living conditions of these prisoners. Well there are alot worse conditions than no air condition. I spent 2 years in huntsville, tx. AC would of been nice, but it is not as bad as you make it sound. In the article notice they said that the only ones who died had something wrong with them, like hepititis c, or liver cancer!

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
107. So you think it's okay to put prisoners with those kinds of health conditions at risk?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 06:39 AM
Jul 2012

I don't. Their custodians are responsible for their health and well-being. Their individual health conditions are known to those who have responsibility for them. Leaving them in conditions in which they may--and do--die indicates a callous disregard for human life.

Yet you are obviously prepared to defend that.

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
109. no not defending
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 06:57 AM
Jul 2012

i do not agree with these circumstances, but i also reallize that the mission to save everyone from being wrongfully treated at times is impossible. And i am sorry if you don't like the fact that i do not believe that air condintion is a right. I live without AC and have been for quite awhile now and i live in houston texas where the heat is pretty bad. So because i can't afford to have it, should the state provide it to me?

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
111. Who claimed AC is a right? No one here.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:07 AM
Jul 2012

The point is that those in custodial care who are elderly, infirm or sick should not be subjected to conditions which threaten their health or their very survival.

What's so hard to understand about that?

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
150. HEY! Let me tell you a little secret:
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:05 PM
Jul 2012

The buck stops right at YOUR door. If you know that something is not right and you do NOTHING about it, you are complicit in that wrong. If you simply sit by and say, "Oh well, there's a lot of bad things going on, so I will do nothing about this one," then you are complicit.

These people are dying when they otherwise would not die BECAUSE they are living in conditions which do not support life. We are their custodians; we are responsible for their care, and we are responsible for their deaths, if we do not take reasonable care.

This is not the first year that this shit has happened to these prisoners, and it is going to get worse because it is going to get hotter and hotter. Surely that is not okay with you.

DO something. Write a letter. Send an email to your Congressman. Write to the warden. Do SOMETHING. You have no idea what your small action might mean to these helpless prisoners.

 

demwing

(16,916 posts)
154. Half baked conclusions are better than fully baked inmates
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:26 PM
Jul 2012

but you only care about the former.

BlueinOhio

(238 posts)
23. They just have not come for us yet.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:25 PM
Jul 2012

With the private jails. They pay the law makers to pass bills that will imprison more people, often with unfair sentences. Empty beds cost them money. Forced work for corporations paying just cents while people can not get a job. They just have not found a way to put us all there yet.
But treating people decently even if you think they do not deserve it is always the right answer. Poor, homeless and mentally ill usually end up in jail it's just a matter of time.

classof56

(5,376 posts)
40. Well said.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:07 PM
Jul 2012

Prison privatization is a blight on this nation--one of many, thanks to repubs--and yes, I do believe if they have their way, all of us will end up in their forced labor camps for some small infraction. And treating us decently will not be in their playbook.

Makes me incredibly sad...

BlueinOhio

(238 posts)
42. Kasiach
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:39 PM
Jul 2012

He is trying here in Ohio they know very well it does not save money in fact it ends up costing us more in the end. Greed is a terrible thing. They should be the ones behind bars, stealing our hard earned income.

Doremus

(7,261 posts)
25. If by 'coddle our prisoners' you mean not killing them with heat stroke,
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:32 PM
Jul 2012

then, yeah, I think a civilized society should do a little more coddling.

And just for general principle, a roly eye for you.

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
51. Animation cute
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:09 AM
Jul 2012

But could we please find out the facts before we begin screeching and wringing our hands?

Or are you seriously suggesting that the majority of the people in the world are being abused?

Doremus

(7,261 posts)
146. No more than you are seriously suggesting that the majority of people in the world are incarcerated.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 08:53 PM
Jul 2012

Your post makes no sense, but I have a hunch that's a frequent occurrence.

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
106. have no AC
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 06:25 AM
Jul 2012

and my grandfather doesn't either... he is 73, what is the number to the inhumane society, so i can call them and get us some air conditioning? That would be Real nice.

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
112. Does he have windows?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:08 AM
Jul 2012

And maybe a fan? Can he take a cool shower whenever he gets to feeling the heat?

Windows and cool water are great luxuries when conditions are such that 10 inmates die of heat related causes. Think perhaps windows and a fan might be too much coddling or would that be ok?

Julie

 

MrDiaz

(731 posts)
137. um yea
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 05:23 PM
Jul 2012

He is not in jail lol, of course he can... im not arguing about this anymore, you can see all my other posts on here and that should answer your questions. If you have been to prison then you would know that the inmates are much more worried about other things alot more dangerous than heat!

Iggo

(47,470 posts)
48. No, we shouldn't coddle.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:54 PM
Jul 2012

But at the very least, we should keep them from dying from the heat.

Get your own fucking grip.

 

cbrer

(1,831 posts)
52. Assuming facts not in evidence.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:13 AM
Jul 2012

Or do they even matter to one such as yourself?

OP stated nothing about heat protection at facility. Majority of people in the world live without A/C. Frail people are more at risk for heat injury, incarcerated or not.

Hey, the facts have a grip!

Response to cbrer (Reply #52)

 

noamnety

(20,234 posts)
100. I don't understand what facts you need.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:48 AM
Jul 2012

"heat indexes outside at least one prison last year surpassed 150 degrees." (from state records)

"autopsy documents detailing agonizing deaths inside sweltering prison cells."

"During a week when outdoor heat indexes exceeded 130 degrees, McCollum suffered a seizure. He was hospitalized with a body temperature of 109 degrees, the lawsuit said, then slipped into a coma and died."

I get that outside temps of 150 aren't relevant, that autopsy reports aren't relevant, and that body temps of 109 aren't relevant. But can you tell us what type of facts you believe would be relevant?

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
113. Windows, fans & fresh water.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:11 AM
Jul 2012

Lots of the world has those things, think maybe prison inmates might be worthy of such luxuries or have I lost my grip too?

Julie--who's never noticed you before but while reading your posts in this thread is thinking "Ayn, is that you??"

pa28

(6,145 posts)
57. Infer is how you take something. Imply is how you mean something.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:21 AM
Jul 2012

End of public service announcement.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
85. Eh.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:53 AM
Jul 2012

Not really a grammar lesson. I was just suggesting that now might be a good place to stop.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
90. We as a society can severely limit another's freedom by putting them behind bars in a small cell
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:02 AM
Jul 2012

but it's inhumane to intentionally house a prisoner in a small, confined room that is essentially a sweatbox. And if you think that providing a more life-sustainable temperature is coddling them, I doubt the genuineness of your concern for other vulnerable people -- like the "poor & the homeless" you mentioned ( ) whose lives could be made better if there were much less Americans who looked at humane treatment or a helping hand as coddling.





Response to cbrer (Reply #5)

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
97. I'll wager that no jury will hide you, nor will our Hosts ban you from this thread
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:32 AM
Jul 2012

'Over the top' is entirely justified in this case. Our community values life, and naturally reacts strongly to expressions of inhumanity.

I think you're good, bro--and you have hordes of us in your corner.

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
98. Thanks. When I let 'er rip, that's usually a sign to me that I need to take a break. Been
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:41 AM
Jul 2012

trying to monitor the Anaheim PD situation today (variation on the same theme as this thread), so I'm probably a bit too all-in right now to be conducting rational discourse.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
101. After following Anaheim, no one can blame you for your mood
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:56 AM
Jul 2012

I'm looking forward to our DU delegation getting together again in those actions.

Patiod

(11,816 posts)
123. I also noticed both of those with Free Republic-like opinions are gungeon dwellers
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:44 AM
Jul 2012

Coincidence?

I hope the NRA treats its employees and volunteers well.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
95. jesus christ. did you live in a 8 x 8 concrete bloc too? did your parents force you to stay in
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:17 AM
Jul 2012

it 20 hours a day?

Puregonzo1188

(1,948 posts)
132. How many poor and homeless people die from heat related illness?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:48 PM
Jul 2012

At one point people grew up before penicillin. Would that be an argument today medical care? After all lots of poor and homeless people did from lack of access to medical treatment.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
148. There's a DIFFERENCE.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 10:37 PM
Jul 2012

The homeless can go somewhere and get in air conditioning, because they have a thing called FREEDOM. They are not locked in cages at night.

This happened last year, too. I was in a bank in Paris, TX, when it was over 100 degrees outside, and I was standing next to a prison guard who happened to mention that the prisoners in the local prison complex were dying because of the heat. When I paid attention and started asking her questions, she got a little scared and shut up.

YES, global warming is causing our states, and our prisons to heat up. And it's killing the most helpless in our population--and yes--those include prisoners.

It's wrong, wrong, wrong. It's not a matter of "coddling" them. It's a matter of cruel and inhumane punishment, and it's against the fucking law.

And, by the way? When you take rights from one group, YOU also lose yours. It brings us ALL down, as a society. Is this okay with you?

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,702 posts)
158. You Weren't Old Or Infirm
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 09:43 AM
Aug 2012

During heat waves it is always recommended that the old and infirm are placed in air conditioned environments.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
6. OK. Call me a "bleeding heart liberal", but I think to keep prisoners in un-airconditioned cells
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:06 PM
Jul 2012

in a state like Texas should be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

 

Panasonic

(2,921 posts)
22. I did live in one of those places
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:24 PM
Jul 2012

But, on my first (roughly) 15 days, I spent my time in a barrack which had like three barely-operating AC. I got lucky enough to get an AC right underneath my bed, so while the others sleep, i divert a tiny bit of cooling air to me - I'm used to cool air. Colorado born and bred. The other 50 days had me in a differnet and un AC'ed barrack except for a big fucking fan at the end of the hall, running 24/7 trying to keep the prisoners cool.

Later, on my last 3 weeks before release, I was moved back to my original barracks with a lower bunk after requesting it (after the first day! first two bunks were high - and hated that - I'm not very nimble - a bit chubby)



BlueinOhio

(238 posts)
30. Bleeding Heart
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:40 PM
Jul 2012

When someone calls me a bleeding heart liberal I always thank them. Following in the footsteps of the original bleeding heart. Jesus.(sacred heart of jesus paintings) Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brethern, you did it to me.

 

MrSlayer

(22,143 posts)
9. Leavenworth is called The Hot House.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:13 PM
Jul 2012

I would imagine Texas prisons are much the same. That's part of the punishment I guess. There should be water available for everyone at all times. Other than that, it pretty much is what it is.

 

MrSlayer

(22,143 posts)
145. If they weren't being given water then I agree.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:19 PM
Jul 2012

But I'm certainly not going to call lack of air conditioning inhumane or cruel.

 

maindawg

(1,151 posts)
144. thats a great point
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:13 PM
Jul 2012

One does not need air conditioning to survive. One needs water to survive. The reason that people die from heat is dehydration. If 40 men died, 40,000 men suffered under the same conditions. Its is cruel and unusual punishment and some one should be held accountable.
I do hope the US attorney investigates this .

sorefeet

(1,241 posts)
12. America has no business in any other country
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:08 PM
Jul 2012

until they take care of the corruption and crimes against humanity in it's own back yard.

Patiod

(11,816 posts)
119. Or ventilation.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:24 AM
Jul 2012

And frail prisoners are not put anywhere which might have fans or additional ventilation.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that everyone needs air conditioned comfort, but access to adequate air flow and plenty of cold fresh water are just humane. WWJD and all that.

Glassunion

(10,201 posts)
130. WWJD?
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:25 PM
Jul 2012

Forgive them and let them out of that shit-hole.

Repukes however only like to pick and choose their verses. They use the NSC (New Swiss Cheese) version of the bible. It has 4 pages; 3 of which are illustrated pictures to keep their attention.

Patiod

(11,816 posts)
161. How do you get a body temp of 109
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:50 PM
Aug 2012

in an air conditioned medical unit.

And where did all these defenders of the Texas Prison System come from?

panader0

(25,816 posts)
16. Sheriff Joe Arpaio keeps his inmates in a tent in Phoenix.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:16 PM
Jul 2012

Phoenix gets hotter than Houston. (But it's a dry heat) (sarcasm)

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
32. The temps in Sheriff Joe's tents are reported to exceed 130 degrees in Summer
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:49 PM
Jul 2012

And many incarcerated there are just awaiting trial, and haven't been convicted of anything. But, like you said, "it's a dry heat." So no BFD.

 

Panasonic

(2,921 posts)
18. I spent 88 days in a Texas prison
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:20 PM
Jul 2012

FCI Texarkana, Texarkana, TX

Fortunately I went from September to December - the cooler months. But it was still hot enough to sleep on my shorts. Finally switched from shorts to sweatpants around late October.

I was released on Xmas Day.

But the paper mill near the prison was always wafting our way - and they STINK.

I'm not sure if I stayed long enough to call myself a Texan.

I'm a Coloradan, through and through. The judge decided not to send me to the FCI nearby (20 miles from here) but sent me out of state.

Ugh.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
29. I'm sure there'd be plenty of money if we let go all those in jail for possession
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:39 PM
Jul 2012

of small amounts of pot.

 

crazyjoe

(1,191 posts)
36. maybe OWS should take this on. We could take to the streets demanding air conditioning
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:00 PM
Jul 2012

for all inmates in our correctional system!!
btw, I watch those jail/prison shows on TV, I think the torture is all the f'in floresent lights. They should have a softer glow, might help to keep inmated from going insane.

Smilo

(1,944 posts)
54. "The test of a democracy
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:18 AM
Jul 2012

is not the magnificence of buildings or the speed of automobiles or the efficiency of air transportation, but rather the care given to the welfare of all the people."--Helen Keller

When you treat men badly, they will react - when you treat prisoners badly, they will react - how much mistreatment will they take before they react and cause harm to themselves, the guards and others who work in the prison? We should care about how people are treated whether they are "inside" a prison, or on the "outside" - it is the only right thing to do.

aquart

(69,014 posts)
78. More corporate downsizing by government.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:20 AM
Jul 2012

Doesn't work well, does it? Because families of those inmates need to find lawyers.

Sgent

(5,856 posts)
89. I spent summers
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:31 AM
Jul 2012

in the mid section of Alabama, and my schools didn't have air conditioning until 5th grade, but people need to realize its a different situation.

I had plenty of access to water and hydration salts if needed. I had access to air conditioning if I started to get weak. The ceilings were built with exhaust fans, I had a rotating fan, and the windows were open. If it was too hot I'd sleep outside. My guess is that TX prisons have none of these.

Patiod

(11,816 posts)
120. And there you have it - fans and open windows.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:26 AM
Jul 2012

It's not about air conditioning, it's about humane conditions.

booley

(3,855 posts)
125. crab mentality
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:04 PM
Jul 2012

reading the comments here and on the main story, I also can't help but notice the massive amount of crab mentality going on.

I mean yes there is a lot of ignorance. Like the difference between someone who at least has the freedom to leave for someplace cooler as opposed to someone who has to stay all day in a cell 24/7 until someone lets them out.

And there's the logical fallacies. Like how someone else in the world not having air conditioning doesn't mean inmates aren't dying from the heat.

And there's the rush to judgment. Sure some of those inmates are violent murderers and rapists. Others are small time thieves, non violence drug offenders and some are there because they got rail roaded into jail (It's the height of ignorance to assume every person in a Texas prison is there because they deserve to be. Google Tulia Texas and a Texas defense lawyer named Ronald G Mock). I guess I could ask which of these groups deserve to be baked alive. But that would be silly. The heat doesn't care what you've done or if you deserve to die before it starts to kill you.

But all the arguments seem to (pardon the pun) boil down to is that since group A is having problems and needs help then group B which is also having problems and needs help should basically be left on their.

I'm screwed so you should be too, is the sentiment.

Thus the plight of group A becomes the excuse to ignore the plight of group B. So no one gets any help.

And then these same people wonder why nothing gets better.

markpkessinger

(8,366 posts)
147. I've never understood the mentality that says we have to treat convicted criminals like animals...
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 09:43 PM
Jul 2012

We Americans have a horribly punitive streak in us that leads us to believe that it isn't enough to separate a convicted criminal from his loved ones, from his possessions, from his friends, from everything he holds dear, from his dreams and aspirations, from almost every last vestige of his humanity, often for a period of many years. No, that isn't enough for us. On top of all of that, we also seem to find it necessary to place our collective foot on his head and grind his face into the dirt.

We tell ourselves things like, "Prison isn't supposed to be a picnic," and then proceed to turn a blind eye to the systematic destruction of human souls that occurs within prison walls. We convince ourselves that if only we punish convicts brutally enough, that brutality will somehow serve as a deterrent to others, or, failing that, will at least give the convict "what he deserves." And as we tell ourselves these things, the image of convict we conjure in our minds is an amalgam of all the very worst violent criminals we can remember having heard about -- some hybrid of, say, a Manson or a Bundy or a Dahmer -- meanwhile completely ignoring the fact that the largest number of incarcerated persons are nonviolent offenders. And many of our prisoners wind up spending weeks, months or even years of their confinement in inhumanly cruel solitary confinement, sometimes for things as trivial as infractions of minor prison rules. But we shield our eyes from those realities, and instead take comfort in the thought that the last violent criminal to make sensational headlines is suffering.

Yet our long-cherished notions about the effects of our brutal punishment never seem to pan out. Excessive, brutal punishment does not deter crime. (Indeed, do we really think most extremely violent offenders undertake a rational, carefully considered cost-benefit analysis before committing their crimes?)

Years ago I had an uncle (by marriage) who was a prison guard in Pennsylvania. He had a Bachelor's in secondary education (history, I believe), so in addition to functioning as a guard, he also often taught classes. I remember back in the early '80s, when every elected politician was all about "getting tough on crime," and there was a lot of talk around the country about eliminating various "luxuries" from prisons. One of the "luxuries" that got a lot of focus was the availability of weights/exercise equipment in many prisons. (Televisions and libraries were also targeted.) People didn't like the fact that prisoners were bulking up while on the inside. My uncle, however, based on his long experience as a guard, took a different view. He pointed out that one of the biggest problems in managing prison populations, of keeping both guards and prisoners safe, was the long hours of boredom and idleness. He said the last thing he wanted to deal with, as a guard, was several thousand inmates -- many of them potentially very dangerous -- who had too much time on their hands with nothing to do and with few physical outlets. Working out, in my uncle's experience, served as a relief valve for prisoners, and thus made it easier for them to deal with the stresses of prison life.

So we convict people of crimes (not always correctly), and we then put them into the worst possible hellhole we can create for them. If they weren't animals when they arrived, many of them will be by the time they leave. They have to become as bad as the worst they encounter, merely to survive. And then when they finally get out, we offer next to no real support to them for reintegrating into society. In fact, we make it almost impossible for many of them. And then we scratch our heads when these folks return to a life of crime in order to survive. We have earnest discussions about "recidivism" and about the root causes of crime.

There are other countries that seem to do a better job in all of this. But we're too busy being "exceptional" to be bothered learning from anyone else.

Hubert Flottz

(37,726 posts)
160. Guys like Bush and Rick Perry...
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
Aug 2012

Good ole Southern Christian Boys, get a boner just thinking about being able to boss an operation like that.(makes them look good to their Good ole Southern Christian base too.)

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