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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:04 AM

Tom Tomorrow: What We REALLY Need Is...



Daily Kos Link: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/30/1114189/-What-we-really-need

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Reply Tom Tomorrow: What We REALLY Need Is... (Original post)
Hissyspit Jul 2012 OP
Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #1
Blanks Jul 2012 #3
baldguy Jul 2012 #50
The Magistrate Jul 2012 #4
Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #8
HopeHoops Jul 2012 #10
Coyotl Jul 2012 #67
kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #19
harmonicon Jul 2012 #33
rock Jul 2012 #37
Poiuyt Jul 2012 #39
rock Jul 2012 #48
lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #49
LadyHawkAZ Jul 2012 #63
lame54 Jul 2012 #51
Blanks Jul 2012 #56
chknltl Jul 2012 #57
gkhouston Jul 2012 #60
geckosfeet Jul 2012 #64
HopeHoops Jul 2012 #69
whathehell Aug 2012 #76
HopeHoops Aug 2012 #80
joeybee12 Jul 2012 #9
1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #14
paparush Jul 2012 #17
alfredo Jul 2012 #40
AtheistCrusader Jul 2012 #59
DaDeacon Aug 2012 #78
AtheistCrusader Aug 2012 #79
Auggie Jul 2012 #5
Capt. Obvious Jul 2012 #6
Garion_55 Jul 2012 #7
alfredo Jul 2012 #43
Ikonoklast Jul 2012 #16
Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #18
Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #23
bupkus Jul 2012 #24
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #32
AtheistCrusader Jul 2012 #61
Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #70
Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #21
yurbud Jul 2012 #26
yurbud Jul 2012 #27
yurbud Jul 2012 #29
nxylas Jul 2012 #65
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #31
spin Jul 2012 #34
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #35
spin Jul 2012 #38
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #42
spin Jul 2012 #46
Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #47
Mopar151 Jul 2012 #53
spin Jul 2012 #55
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #71
spin Aug 2012 #72
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #73
spin Aug 2012 #74
nadinbrzezinski Aug 2012 #75
spin Aug 2012 #77
krispos42 Jul 2012 #52
Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2012 #66
suffragette Jul 2012 #2
HopeHoops Jul 2012 #11
bupkus Jul 2012 #28
yurbud Jul 2012 #44
NJCher Jul 2012 #12
alfredo Jul 2012 #41
Vanje Jul 2012 #13
Zoeisright Jul 2012 #15
yurbud Jul 2012 #20
barbtries Jul 2012 #22
yurbud Jul 2012 #25
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #30
bongbong Jul 2012 #36
yurbud Jul 2012 #45
BootinUp Jul 2012 #54
SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #58
DeSwiss Jul 2012 #62
Courtesy Flush Jul 2012 #68

Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:08 AM

1. Actually, the massacres that are prevented because a bystander had a gun

tend not to make the news. Because they didn't become massacres.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:16 AM

3. I'm sure that's a good point...

Just as I'm sure no sources can be cited because they never make the news.

However it seems like some guy named Goetz stopped a 'knifing' on the New York subway in the 80's. That made the news.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

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Response to Blanks (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:01 PM

50. And as a result, he was convicted of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.

Bernie Goetz broke the law.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:19 AM

4. The Technical Term For That, Sir, Is Bullshit

You will, in fact, find damned few instances where a bystander has prevented any crime by a person with a firearm, and none where a bystander with a gun has prevented or ended a prepared mass killing by a person who came to a place intending to kill as many as he could. The latter circumstance certainly would be prominently featured in the news.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:32 AM

8. You know why the Earth has never been invaded by aliens?

Because I'm up on my roof every fucking night, armed with my shotgun and a thermos of coffee. And sometimes a can of Pringles. But my point is, my vigilance is keeping the world safe.

You're welcome...

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:46 AM

10. I thought it was because they couldn't detect any intelligent life forms.

 

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #10)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 09:34 AM

67. Just a bunch of armed Yahoos chewing 'baco and spittin'

just sitting on their roofs staring at the moon and holding guns

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:38 PM

19. Duzy! n/t

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:05 PM

33. I've got a rock that saves me from tiger attacks.

Have I ever been attacked by a tiger? Of course not. Thanks, rock.

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Response to harmonicon (Reply #33)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:41 PM

37. You're welcome

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Response to rock (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:53 PM

39. How often do we get a post that is tailor made?

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Response to Poiuyt (Reply #39)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:37 PM

48. Very rarely n/t

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Response to rock (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:50 PM

49. LOL!

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Response to rock (Reply #37)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:19 AM

63. I just burst out laughing

Boyfriend is giving me funny looks now. Thanks.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:53 PM

51. why aren't you up there right now?...

you're making me nervous

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:10 PM

56. I can't thank you enough.

I don't own any guns. Mostly because there a lot of statistics that would indicate that my family is safer without any guns in the household.

Now that I don't have to worry about alien invaders; I have even less reason to have guns.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:20 PM

57. Well if you must, just don't drop anything k?

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:32 AM

60. Skip the shotgun and coffee; it's the Pringles that are scaring them off.

Just pop a can or two, leave the "potato food" there, and go to bed.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 06:56 AM

64. Crunchy cheetos here.

Damn those aliens.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #8)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 09:59 AM

69. And don't forget that Viet Nam never invaded Texas while the shrub was AWOL.

 

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #69)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:41 PM

76. Well, true enough, but you might remember that Reagan hinted that

El Salvador might try and invade Texas...he counted the miles and all!

P.S. True, that...He was trying to get congress to cough up

money for the contras, but it didn't work didn't work.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #76)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 05:36 PM

80. Yeah, and Grenada had "Cuban military-trained workers" at the airport.

 

WAKE-UP CALL! ALL males over 18 in Cuba are trained for military service. Reagan called it "our airport".

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:34 AM

9. Exactly...wish I could rec your post

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:58 AM

14. I beg to differ ...

All one has to do is get up early and look at the "Lastest Threads" segment. Every day there is at least one "Good guy shoots Bad guy" story, originally posted in DU's own Guns Forum.

Of course these stories, general, report a home invasion or an aborted robbery of a corner store; but we MUST extrapolate from these stories to keep the 2nd Amendment safe.

{Yes, I'm being sarcastic ... and a little tired of seeing the stories.}

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:16 PM

17. If you read those stories that the NRA point to..

You'll find a percentage that read something like "Homeowner wounds/kills unarmed youth who may or may not have been trying to enter the homeowner's garage..."

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:21 PM

40. They have the element of surprise.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #4)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:29 AM

59. Tyler Texas Courthouse shooting.

Mark Allen Wilson saved at least one person's life, at a cost of his own, delaying the shooter until SWAT could arrive on-scene. The police officers in the courthouse were completely out-gunned.

His intervention saved at LEAST one life, probably more, as the officers inside were unable to keep Arroyo Sr. from approaching the building.

Arroyo Sr. was wearing body armor, a flak jacket, and was armed with a clone of the AK-47 platform. Mark Wilson had nothing but a .45.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #59)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:53 PM

78. I remember that case...

yeah he got himself killed as law enforcement was moving in on the shooter as he was unable to kill the shooter after shooting him in the back with a .45. The shooter had targeted his Ex-wife and son after a child support case. There was no indication he was on a killing spree but hey I'll give you that one so 1 -30. LOL. Yeah good work.

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Response to DaDeacon (Reply #78)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:58 PM

79. Your memory is faulty.

The exchange between Arroyo and Wilson took a bit longer than you just suggested, and Congress posthumously recognized Wilson for his act.

You've highlighted the 'no mass shooting has ever been stopped by an armed bystander' meme's biggest weakness. If it gets stopped, how the hell do you know it wasn't a mass shooting? In this case, one dead, one severely wounded, several police officers wounded, plus Wilson dead. We have no way of knowing if more or less would have died if Wilson had never left his apartment.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:23 AM

5. No. If that ever happened the NRA would not let us forget ...

and we have had heard about it ad nasueum after Aurora.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:29 AM

6. LOL!

News media hold back all the time on gun deaths/incidents - especially if it's the massacre-preventing vigilante kind.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:30 AM

7. so how about

how many massacres in the process of happening were stopped by a gun wielding civilian?

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Response to Garion_55 (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:26 PM

43. Bruce Willis does it all the time.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:53 AM

16. Name one.

One.

One mass murderer stopped by a Valiant Armed Citizen.

It would have made the news from here to the fucking MOON.

What total bullshit.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:19 PM

18. OK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Woodham went on to wound seven others before leaving, intending to drive off campus and conduct another shooting at the nearby Pearl Junior High School. However, assistant principal Joel Myrick had retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham inside his mother's car. Then Myrick demanded "Why did you shoot my kids?" to which Woodham replied, "Life has wronged me, sir.

BTW, this is the one example you asked for. I'm not going to play the "oh, but this one doesn't count because of x, give me another one" game.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:42 PM

23. Ummm...

You have a funny definition for "preventing" a mass shooting, as two people were already dead and seven were wounded.

The fact that Woodham was allegedly intending to shoot up another school is pretty much irrelevant. He might have been apprehended by law enforcement en route or he might have simply dropped his plans when he found the other school was locked down following the earlier incident.

Sorry. You can't say that the shooting was "thwarted" when the shooter was miles away from the target.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #18)


Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:04 PM

32. Preventing means stoping it from occuring

at least in my dictionary. Two people dead and seven injured once the lead stopped flying is not precisely meeting that definition.

But perhaps, it's possible, we are using a different dictionary.

I would even accept as stopping it, which is the usual thing thrown in these occasions, as stopping the perp in the middle of the event, which is what all wannabee heroes usually claim they can do.

The few situations it has happened, (see Tucson), it was achieved by people who have a lot of guts, who wrestled the shooter to the ground. Mind you, Tucson also had somebody with a CCW, that to his credit, had the PRESENCE OF MIND to think twice before clearing leather, and per his own admittance, he might have shot the wrong person.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #32)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:35 AM

61. It would not really be in the service of CPL holders, if some of us started killing

everyone we suspected MIGHT have the POTENTIAL to commit a mass-shooting before they engage in any harmful act.

Until they start one, in fact, it's pretty much irresponsible to suggest a CPL holder might shoot one.

There have been multiple examples of mass-shootings halted by armed civilians. That was certainly one.

Prevented? What the fuck are we supposed to be, the department of pre-crime?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #32)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:11 AM

70. I wish that Holmes would have been stopped after shooting only one or two people (nt)

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:40 PM

21. I'm really tired of this meme. It's BS.

Someone brings up mass shootings stopped by an armed civilian. Anti-gun folks, with only emotion to base their argument on, deny that such a thing has ever occurred. Rinse, lather, repeat. I have no respect for arguments based on false assertions. If you don't know, don't insist that something has never happened. Go do some research.

For the record, here are SEVERAL examples of when this has happened, by no means complete:

Appalachian Law School, 2002:
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/hi_christy.htm
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/16/law.school.shooting/

Pearl High School, 1997:
http://www.holology.com/shooting2.html
http://articles.cnn.com/1997-10-02/us/9710_02_miss.shooting.folo_1_mary-woodham-pearl-high-school-trench-coat?_s=PM:US

Parker Middle School, 1998:
http://articles.cnn.com/1998-04-25/us/9804_25_school.shooting.pm_1_count-of-criminal-homicide-weapon-and-surrender-west-paducah?_s=PM:US

All that being said, this is a silly argument. Could anyone have stopped the Aurora shooter if they were armed? Extremely unlikely. He was armored to the hilt, it was dark, access would have been difficult due to running people and layout of seats, and the scene was incredibly chaotic. The likelihood of a person who hasn't had military or law enforcement training doing anything at all successful is pretty much nil. No responsible gun owner would have started firing a handgun in that kind of situation - they just would've killed more people. Similarly, other massacres would be very difficult to stop unless the perpetrator was already running, out of ammo, not shooting/moving in a crowd of people, etc. The examples above show that it's possible when you have an inexperienced, relatively unprepared shooter who doesn't want to die, with more open surroundings. While it happens, the number of shootings where an armed civilian could successfully intervene are small and would remain just about as small if more people were armed. The fact is, FBI statistics show that about 167 people per year die in mass killings (defined by 4+ murders by any means, many of which do not occur in spree killings). Having a massive, emotional gun control debate either to ban guns, much more heavily regulate guns, or arm everyone, when the number of incidents and people killed yearly by spree killers is so small, is pretty ridiculous. There are much more important things to worry about, such as what we can do as a society to end extreme violence (which may or may not involve guns), decrease gangs and gang violence, etc. The ZOMG!!!! LEGISLATE TO STOP SPREE KILLERS!!!! push is such a red herring.

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:47 PM

26. in your first example, the gunman was tackled not shot or threatened to be shot

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:50 PM

27. Pearl, Mississippi was stopped by someone with a gun

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:54 PM

29. In your third link, the shooter was pursued by armed bystander AFTER he was done

If he had made a clean escape, admittedly he could have gone on to kill more, though just as likely survivors could have given cops enough info to catch him.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #29)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:14 AM

65. He was stopped retroactively

From the Mitt Romney school of logic.

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:01 PM

31. First example he was detained in a classic hot stop

by two OFF DUTY cops, assisted by civilians. These were NOT civilians... but damn it, I am sure you also have body armor, a duty side arm and a badge on you at all times. The badge is functionally a ... wait for it, CCW that is allowed in MORE places than one issued to Civilians, but you knew that.

Won't bother with the rest.

Oh and I will add, how exactly did it stop the perp from shooting the folks he already shot?

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:20 PM

34. Jeanne Assam who had a carry permit and was acting as a volunteer security guard at a church ...

stopped a mass murderer.

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings

The 2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings occurred December 9, 2007, when Matthew J. Murray attacked the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada, Colorado, and New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

***snip***

New Life Church shooting

On Sunday, December 9, 2007, at about 1 p.m. Murray, armed with a semi-automatic rifle and two pistols, entered the foyer of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and fatally shot two and wounded three others before himself being shot and wounded by Jeanne Assam, a former sworn Colorado police officer and a church member acting as security. Murray then took his own life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings


The news media did report this story but emphasized the fact that Assam was a former police officer and a security guard at the church. In fact she volunteered to be an unpaid security guard and had a carry permit.

The Remaking of Jeanne Assam

It seems the mainstream media has a hard time accepting the idea that a concealed weapons carrier can stop a massacre in progress. I'm not surprised. Even though the pastor of the New Life Church explained the position of his members who carry handguns in church, the media continues to portray Jeanne Assam as a security guard. She wore no uniform. She received no pay. She worshiped there by choice. Her only duty was to God, her fellow parishioners, and to her own conscience.
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2007/12/remaking-of-jeanne-assam.html

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Response to spin (Reply #34)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:22 PM

35. Sorry, but she was a former police officer

better trained than the usual johnny on the spot.

Detecting a pattern here, of the ones where people stopped them... it was a TRAINED person.

I guess I should ignore that...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #35)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:47 PM

38. I agree that her experience was a positive factor ...

However I know a number of people who have carry permits who are ex-military with combat experience or retired police. Obviously such people have the edge in maintaining their cool in a dangerous situation.

It is also true that many regular shooters who legally carry concealed are far better at shooting than most police officers who only qualify once or twice a year.

Fortunately mass murders are extremely rare events. They also often happen in "gun free" zones as the shooter is looking for a shooting gallery where he can rack up a high score of kills before the armed police arrive. The shooter in the most recent Colorado shooting was also wearing body armor and used tear gas. Even a police officer on the scene armed with only his handgun would have had a difficult time stopping this individual if he had chosen to fight. Obviously an armed citizen or citizens in the Aurora movie theater would have faced the same difficulty and would have likely ended up injured or dead.

There have been many incidents in which a person with a carry permit was able to stop a criminal attack. Most end up without any shots being fired as a predator is looking for a victim who lacks the ability to fight back effectively. Such incidents usually occur at arm's length and the ability to accurately shoot at distance is not a factor.

Eighty percent of all homicides are caused by criminals or criminal gangs. Many involve "drive by" shootings and frequently innocent people are killed or injured.

How many gun deaths are in the US every year?

Answer:
Per the Center for Disease Control, latest figures (2005) show 30,694 firearm deaths (all races, all ages, both sexes) in the United States.
Since a firearm is an inanimate object, it can not be the sole creator/ root cause of a death as it must be handled by a person in order to be fired.
A more accurate description is approximately 16,000 suicides using a firearm.
Approximately 12,252 murders by firearms 80% of which are caused by felons/career criminals/gang member activities. USDOJ National Gang Threat Assessment annual report 2009.
Approximately 600 justifiable defensive shootings by both police and citizens.
The remainder in accidental firearms discharges.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gun_deaths_are_in_the_US_every_year


In my opinion it would make far more sense to attack the criminal gang problem in our nation rather than greatly restrict firearm ownership or try to overturn the carry of firearms by honest citizens. Perhaps we should reconsider our failed War on Drugs which provides much of the profit for organized crime and leads to turf wars between drug gangs in our inner cities.

Stopping mass murderers is far more difficult as they usually are suffering from serious mental issues. I feel we need to carefully evaluate our mental health care system and determine how we can improve it. This might also reduce the number of suicides caused by firearms.



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Response to spin (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:25 PM

42. INHO we need gun laws

as well as attacking the criminal gangs, of course the latter, could easily lead to things like oh Mexico (which leads me to the next item... it is not just the gangs, but the basis of what they use to control turf... and lack of jobs I could go on... shades of gray and all that)

But the incidents where somebody actually stops, after the fact mind you, we have yet to see the fantasy here portrayed actually happen, is trained people. One example involved two OFF DUTY Law enforcement, one even went and got his body armor out of the car. The second, this one, a FORMER police officer.

Aka both involved a certain degree of training that johnny on the spot usually lacks.

The ONLY event where a CCW could have made a difference, that is very recent, fortunately he thought about it and NEVER cleared leather, or he could have shot the person who without a gun was wrestling Loughner to the ground. In that case, a vet was involved. I mean the guy wrestling Loughner to the ground.

And when interviewed he said it clearly, he was not a hero, training, yes, TRAINING, took over.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #42)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:34 PM

46. I definitely agree that training is a prime factor ...

I am pointing out that many of those who carry on a daily basis often have such training.

There are currently no statistics on how many people who have carry permits carry regularly. I would guess that it is far less than 50%. Those who do probably have a background in the military, police or have attended martial arts classes. They often shoot on a regular basis and read articles on self defense and the use of legitimate self defense.

The larger majority of those who legally carry probably only do so when they feel they are traveling into a dangerous neighborhood or live in one. Those who do carry are often people who have been in harm's way and realize that you can't predict when and if you might have to defend your life or health. Such people often practice "situational awareness" and consequently avoid many potentially dangerous encounters.

To be fair we live in a society where the violent crime rate has decreased to levels last seen in the late 60s. Most of those who have obtained a concealed carry license plan to carry a large and heavy weapon such as a .45 auto. That, at the minimum, is a pain in the ass. Consequently they often leave their weapon behind when they journey to the store or to areas that they consider safe.

Unfortunately a very few of those who have a carry permit view themselves as vigilantes or heroes. The Trayvon Martin shooting might be one such example. If you are foolish enough to go looking for trouble it will find you.

While I can't find statistics to support my personal experience I feel that many of those who carry regularly have some form of training or a background that would enable them to react rationally or responsibly when they find themselves in a true life or death situation. Perhaps they explains why so few innocent bystanders have been shot by those who have carry permits.



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Response to spin (Reply #46)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 06:19 PM

47. Thanks. I think guns should be licensed and registered just like cars are,

and just as training is a required part of being a licensed driver, training should be required to be a licensed gun owner. It's certainly interesting that training and experience features in many of the examples that you cite.

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Response to spin (Reply #46)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:56 PM

53. Based on my experience

Most of the people who carry regularly (or keep one under the seat...and let you know about it) have a big mouth, that they cannot keep under control.

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Response to Mopar151 (Reply #53)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:07 PM

55. The reason that we may have observed a difference ...

is that my circle of friends includes many regular shooters who have carry permits and a high percentage of them are ex-military or retired police.

Few feel the need to act or sound like tough guys.

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Response to spin (Reply #55)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:01 PM

71. Isn't that a critical difference?

If a good number of CCW holders are trained with formal experience (for the record retired cops keep their ccw), that is one thing.

If a good number of CCW are people with no formal training that is a problem right?

And truth be told we do not know. Also the level of training of your CCW population will vary from state to state. Some states issues them like candy, some do not. For example compare yes Florida and California... they are at opposite poles. Why in Florida Mr. Zimmerman kept his CCW even after a domestic dispute, but in California he would not have kept it.

And yes, cops, retired cops deserve and need them (and are trained).

I am also all for somebody who due to circumstance should be granted one... the usual list of suspects comes to mind, from abused wife, to person who has reason to fear for witnessing something, or received death threats... the usual. My problem with that is that while they should be issued them, they should ALSO be trained. Some states require it, some do not. The ones that do not increase the risk to the holder, IMHO, unless that person had some formal training previously.

Also, there are stats on the number of people who actually get injured\ killed by their own fire arms. We even know why... that lethal moment of hesitation. So if you are going to carry... the first thing you need to get over is, the fact that if you need to bring it to bear, somebody is going to die. Yes, it is that simple... and while in some cases the perp might just run away, in others the perp will go after your gun. If you do not pull the trigger, well guess what? Somebody will die, and it will not be the perp.

We as a country see guns as a solution and the world as a very scary place. Violent crime has gone down yes, what has not gone down is the violence due to fire arms.

And we even have more guns right now in circulation than yes, the very wild west, and our regulations, even including the 1934 law, are nowhere close where they were in the very wild west. The NRA would have collective fits of anger if they even understood how the real Tucson, or other famous locale, dealt with carrying in town... and those wild west towns had very good reason for that as well.

I would love for the NRA (ain't gonna happen unless the members revolt) goes back to it's roots... truly. That means, Wayne LaPierre and the rest are out of a job.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #71)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 07:18 AM

72. OK, lets look at Florida ...

Currently there are 840,298 Florida residents who have concealed weapons permits. The state has issued 2,227,360 carry permits since 1987 of which 952,415 are valid of which 112,117 are held by people who live in other states.

In the 25 years that Florida has had "shall issue" concealed carry only 168 people have lost their license due to a crime committed after the permit was issued. Not all of those involved a shooting. Unfortunately Florida doesn't provide a breakdown of what crimes caused the revocation of the license.

reference sources for data:
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.pdf
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_active.pdf

Allowing people to legally carry concealed weapons in Florida has rarely caused a tragedy but yet still it happens. On the other hand the law has allowed honest citizens to defend themselves against criminals outside their home. I personally know of three incidents where an individual with a concealed weapons permit was able to stop an attack from a person who intended to harm him.The fact that the victim was armed caused the attacker to break off and leave. In all three cases no shots were fired. Admittedly these are indeed anecdotal tales but since I personally know the individuals I believe their story as they rarely or ever exaggerated what they talk about. I can recognize a bullshitter quickly and if one told me that he used his handgun to defend himself I would listen politely as I love a good story but I would never believe anything he said.

As to your point:


Also, there are stats on the number of people who actually get injured\ killed by their own fire arms. We even know why... that lethal moment of hesitation. So if you are going to carry... the first thing you need to get over is, the fact that if you need to bring it to bear, somebody is going to die. Yes, it is that simple... and while in some cases the perp might just run away, in others the perp will go after your gun. If you do not pull the trigger, well guess what? Somebody will die, and it will not be the perp.


I always ask any inexperienced person who asks me about buying or legally carrying a handgun for self defense, "Are you absolutely certain that you can shoot someone who is attacking you with the intention of putting you in the hospital for an expended stay or six feet under?" I point out that not being able to do so is not a character flaw but is admirable. If they say that that they could never do so but they merely wish to use the weapon as a threat, I point out how foolish this idea is. In fact I try my best to discourage people from owning a firearm if they don't already. Guns are NOT for everybody.

You are right when you mention "that lethal moment of hesitation." Basic human nature makes it very difficult to kill someone. I've also heard it said that if you survive your first gunfight you will never hesitate again. Fortunately I have never had to use any of my weapons for home defense or on the street against a mugger or a dangerously enraged individual and that is the last thing I hope that I will ever have to do. I have, however, been in several tight situations during my life and I reacted rationally and logically. I have confidence that I could use a firearm to defend myself if truly necessary knowing that I might seriously injure or even kill my attacker.

However if I am on the street and my situational awareness fails me and I find myself faced with an individual who demands my wallet, I will just turn it over if I seriously believe that that is all he wants. I can always replace my money, my ID and my credit cards but I can't easily replace my health or my life. If I do this and the mugger decides to attack me I would use my handgun to attempt to stop him.

You state:


I am also all for somebody who due to circumstance should be granted one... the usual list of suspects comes to mind, from abused wife, to person who has reason to fear for witnessing something, or received death threats... the usual. My problem with that is that while they should be issued them, they should ALSO be trained. Some states require it, some do not. The ones that do not increase the risk to the holder, IMHO, unless that person had some formal training previously.


My daughter attracted the attention of a stalker. This individual had also been stalking one of her best friends who was absolutely terrified of him. He was an alcoholic with a record of resisting arrest and seemed relatively unstable. My daughter did get a restraining order but it was simply ignored it as is often the case. She reported every violation to the police and I'm sure that they got tired of listening to her but little was done. There were several hearings with a judge who instructed this individual to never come within a certain distance of our house and to leave a store if she was inside. Eventually this fool was caught withing the limits and there were witnesses. I was one. He was arrested and had to spend several weekends in jail. He finally learned his lesson and no longer bothered her as the judge told him the next time it happened he would spend a year in prison.

When the stalking started my daughter was not terrified like her friend as she already had a concealed carry permit and was an experienced shooter. Had she had to obtain the permit, she would have had to go through the process in Florida which requires taking a class and would have had a wait up to three months in order to get her permit.

You can't always predict when you might need to carry a firearm. Also "may issue" concealed carry is often misused to prevent minorities from having the right to legally carry. "Shall issue" is color blind.

You state:


We as a country see guns as a solution and the world as a very scary place. Violent crime has gone down yes, what has not gone down is the violence due to fire arms.


Since you don't provide a source for your assertion it may well just be your opinion. If you had I would carefully consider your statistics. I did devote some time to research this topic. The results disprove your statement.

A quick search on Google provided this graph from 2008:


http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/percentfirearm.cfm

Wilipedia provides this info:



You also mention gun control in Tucson during the "Wild West." It was indeed tougher than it is today, however let's look at the crime statistics for Tucson today:

Crime rates for Tucson, AZ

The crime rate in Tucson is considerably higher than the national average across all communities in America from the largest to the smallest, although at 25 crimes per one thousand residents, it is not among the communities with the very highest crime rate. The chance of becoming a victim of either violent or property crime in Tucson is 1 in 40. Based on FBI crime data, Tucson is not one of the safest communities in America. Relative to Arizona, Tucson has a crime rate that is higher than 51% of the state's cities and towns of all sizes.

However, NeighborhoodScout analyzed all cities and towns in America with a similar population size to Tucson, and we found that the crime rate in Tucson is one of the lowest in the nation for its size. This means Tucson is one of the safest places in America in which to live for its size, a very important finding....emphasis added
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/az/tucson/crime/


The NRA has often been portrayed as an evil organization because it opposes very strong gun control measures by groups such as the Brady Campaign. The fact remains that this organization supports gun owner rights and fights against the incremental approach to banning all firearms. Unfortunately this means they also oppose more reasonable gun control measures which even I agree with. Compromise between the two sides of this issue appears impossible at this time just as compromise between the Republicans and Democrats on MANY issues also seems impossible today. It seems to me that both sides of all issues are cemented into their position and incapable of any movement. Consequently our nation suffers as the result. We all seem to spend our time on efforts of insulting the people we disagree with and the results are predictable. We all seem to hate each other.

I belong to the NRA as the organization does a lot of good for the shooting sports. It offers excellent training programs to train shooters and police and aids in sponsoring shooting competitions across the nation. It also supports politicians who support gun rights including Democrats. Unfortunately the political wing of the NRA publishes a lot of false propaganda just as the Brady Campaign does. Consequently I merely pay my yearly dues of which only a small fraction of which goes to the NRA-ILA. This more political group is supported by donations and when I receive a mailing from it, it goes in the trash unopened.(I don't get many anymore as the NRA-ILA must realize that sending me mail is a waste of time.) There are 80 million gun owners in our nation of which only 4.3 million are NRA members. Obviously many gun owners find the constant mailings from the NRA-ILA irritating and repulsive and drop their membership. I have known a number of previous members who have told me that this was what they did.

I apologize for not reply to your post in a more timely manner. I was involved in watching the Olympics.













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Response to spin (Reply #72)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 11:06 AM

73. Thank you for proving my point regarding Florida and CCW

you even did without realizing it.

Carry all you want. Defend the NRA all you want... as far as I am concerned, this is sheer fantasy and the US still has a 20 times higher HOMICIDE rate due to firearms than it's closest follower.

If you think that is an ok cost to pay fine... it is a GOOD THING you live in Florida and i live in California. Somebody like Zimmy would have had his permit first suspended, and after he was convicted of abuse, REMOVED. Why is this so hard for folks like you to understand, I will never get.

And yes, glad your daughter has one and is chiefly trained... She is in the group of suspects that need to get them, AFTER GETTING A LICENCE... but due to people like you, that will not happen anytime soon.

By the way gun control is NOT gun grabbing, is keeping guns out of criminals, the mentally insane and yes, children. But hey, you won the framing debate, FOR NOW.

Enjoy the olympics.

I see even some hard core pro gun rights have come out after Aurora going... hmm perhaps we have been making a mistake. I see that as a hopeful sign that perhaps this collective insanity might be starting to change. And yes SPIN, it is collective insanity.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #73)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:17 PM

74. The Zimmerman case is strange ...

I have no idea why his permit wasn't pulled.

I mentioned my daughter and her stalker. After a hearing with the judge she received a certified letter from the state requiring her to turn in her carry permit. She immediately called the judge and found out that it was a clerical mistake. He straightened the situation out. The stalker was required to turn in his firearms.

TRAYVON: George Zimmerman had a history of violence
Mar25 by johnbenneth

There’s got to be a reason the Sanford, Florida police have been acting so strangely in the Trayvon Martin case: I think they’re about to be hit with a charge of gross malfeasance in the shooting death of Trayvon and they know it. And the shooter has them over a barrel.

George Zimmerman, the shooter, it appears has a get out of jail card from the somebody or something in system for years now. He’s got a record of violence that would normally have prevented him from having a concealed weapon permit.

***snip***

Florida requires a history of violence report for carry permit that would have included a violent brush with the cops.

A domestic violence charge is all it takes for the law for the cops to demand surrender of your guns. Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit in 2005, and if he did, was he required to turn in his pistol and any other guns he had? Or did he get yet another pass on that one to go alonside his get out of jail free card.
http://johnbenneth.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/trayvor-george-zimmerman-had-a-history-of-violence/


Zimmerman appears to have far more influence than the average person. If the national media had not jumped on the story he would not be facing a trial today.

I had a co-worker who lost his carry permit and his firearms because of false accusations from his ex. The police actually arrived at our workplace and hauled him off in handcuffs. Later he was fully exonerated. I believe his ex had mental issues.

Something does smell in Sanford, Florida. Florida law doesn't seem to be evenly applied to all in that city.

I'm glad that you enjoy living in California. I personally would never wish to live there.



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Response to spin (Reply #74)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:24 PM

75. And I would never, ever move to florida

so we are even. At this point I won't even visit, mostly I can't afford to.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #75)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 04:42 PM

77. I can deal with a hurricane or a severe tropical storm ...

as I have time to prepare or evacuate if necessary.

How do people in California deal with an earthquake?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:54 PM

52. Every time a CCW permittee shoots a gun-waving idiot at a convenience store...

...there's a chance he or she prevented a massacre.

We don't know, but statistically it has to happen several times a year, right?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 09:14 AM

66. Care to list all these instances?

When was the last time someone with a CCW shot dead a potential mass gunman before he had a chance to kill or shoot anyone himself?

And no, George Zimmerman doesn't count.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:14 AM

2. Good point about the Sudafed

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Response to suffragette (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:46 AM

11. If Sudafed is criminalized, only criminals will have Sudafed.

 

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Response to HopeHoops (Reply #11)


Response to bupkus (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:02 PM

44. ...cold dead meth lab.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:51 AM

12. "well--maybe next massacre"

I like that line because it emphasizes the casualness with which this country approaches anything that might alleviate this egregious situation.


Cher

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Response to NJCher (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:25 PM

41. Ah he puts another quarter in the one armed bandit, he says "Well, maybe next time."

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:57 AM

13. Huge K and R nt

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:05 AM

15. LOVE that, especially the last frame.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:40 PM

20. One shooting spree WAS stopped by bystanders, the Colin Ferguson subway shooting

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:42 PM

22. that is so good.

like a roomful of monkeys with typewriters.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:45 PM

25. bystanders even stopped a TERRORIST attack on a plane!

shit! They were unarmed too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:54 PM

30. Did tom tomorrow read my posts?

Yup, if laws do not prevent crime, why bother with them?

Next on the list... TRAFFIC LAWS. We need to get rid of them... I mean we all speed a little at some point, so why bother with them?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #30)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:26 PM

36. T.P.

 

> Did tom tomorrow read my posts?

No, but the NRA minions just keep trotting out the same discredited, debunked Talking Points thinking somebody will fall for them. Thus everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, has heard the same 10-20-30 lies. Over and over and over and OVER and OVER and OVER and ...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #30)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:05 PM

45. and sex laws and taxes...

oh wait. conservative like the sex laws.

If no sex is shameful, no one can be blackmailed, especially politicians who may decide to follow their conscience without the threat of the nasty pictures getting out.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:59 PM

54. I think the thread comments have upstaged the political cartoon.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:38 AM

58. Fifty Gun Massacres in Three Decades

Just wondering where Tom Tomorrow got the figure fifty gun massacres in three decades . . . yes, it's a cartoon, but I'd like to know if there's an authoritative source. Would also like to know if my perception is correct that the massacres are increasing in intensity as well as in frequency.

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Response to SoDesuKa (Reply #58)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 03:01 AM

62. ''....fifty gun massacres in three decades...''

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 09:50 AM

68. But if people bring their guns to events

This is what happens... http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/11366575/


RALEIGH, N.C. — A man was shot outside Time Warner Cable Music Pavilion Friday night as concert-goers lined up their vehicles to leave after a show by country singer Jason Aldean


I suspect the shooter was inspired by the Colorado incident, and figured he would bring his gun to the concert, in case they needed a hero.

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