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magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:29 PM Jul 2012

It's past time to end the "pony envy"

Many of us as children dreamed of having a pony. Barbie's dream pony didn't cut it. We wanted the real thing. Those of us born to the 99% who wanted it badly enough mucked out stalls and cleaned tack at local barns for a chance to ride. We earned our rides. Believe it or not, not all Olympic riders are 1%ers. One of the US dressage team's best riders, Debbie MacDonald, as a young child mucked to ride, and then earned the $200 to buy her first pony and earned the money to pay board and lessons. Eventually it was a 1%er who funded her Olympic bid. Others have even made it to the Olympics without sponsorship.

It is possible to hate the Romneys without dissing riding in general and dressage in particular.

Please remember that some democrats are riders. Some ride hunt seat, some ride western, some ride combined training, and some of us ride dressage, which is the foundation of all the other disciplines.

In case you don't believe me about the democrats, I give you this:








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It's past time to end the "pony envy" (Original Post) magical thyme Jul 2012 OP
um...STRONGLY disagree. *FUCK* the GOP **and** the HORSE THEY RODE IN ON. nt LaydeeBug Jul 2012 #1
Not every rider is a member of the GOP. xmas74 Jul 2012 #4
I was trained in a few of the foundation points of dressage... antigone382 Jul 2012 #15
Wow! You sure know how to add value kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #54
K&R. The equestrian events were added in 1912 when the 99% rode horses riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #2
I'm going to have to disagree with you there Retrograde Jul 2012 #50
Just a tiny bit of bad luck and maybe Rafalca/Ebeling will fail spectacularly. magical thyme Jul 2012 #104
This is why DU is a beautiful place DefenseLawyer Jul 2012 #3
The poster in the OP rides xmas74 Jul 2012 #9
ah anybody can ride a horse that hops on two legs.. snooper2 Jul 2012 #86
No, it's because a lot of us know one or two things about dressage... antigone382 Jul 2012 #16
But who cares? I don't!! cilla4progress Jul 2012 #67
Sure, and ultimately I know there's nothing to be done about it. antigone382 Jul 2012 #73
I agree! And I'm a diehard lefty cilla4progress Jul 2012 #113
I enjoy the fun-poking, the "horse prom," the "horse they danced in on," etc. magical thyme Jul 2012 #130
Likewise, there is nothing too petty, inconsequential, idiotic, pointless or downright (edited) A HERETIC I AM Jul 2012 #45
Beautiful horse (course I say that about every horse I see!) cilla4progress Jul 2012 #69
+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #71
+1,000 MADem Jul 2012 #141
k&r HappyMe Jul 2012 #5
I've watched it at county fairs xmas74 Jul 2012 #62
Tell Mitt BeyondGeography Jul 2012 #6
My problem with them is that they write her hobby off as a business Marrah_G Jul 2012 #7
They do run a legitimate business - training, boarding, breeding, sales. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #10
I think there is a big difference between what you do and what they do Marrah_G Jul 2012 #11
Nope. None. I've seen Ann Rmoney at events riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #13
"Granted, they are doing it at a much higher level and expense" DCBob Jul 2012 #44
Do you do it primarily to make a profit? lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #70
She has to make a profit to be structured as a business or get hit by the IRS riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #81
Don't they write it off as "therapy" ? KurtNYC Jul 2012 #90
No. Her riding therapy is her private riding on her private horses. magical thyme Jul 2012 #101
They were eligible for a $50 deduction. Is it really that big a deal? nt hack89 Jul 2012 #47
yes it is when those fuckers make millions upon millions it is!!! gopiscrap Jul 2012 #115
They did not make millions and millions off their horse business. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #123
No one I know can afford hobbies like this... Comrade_McKenzie Jul 2012 #8
it's not hating, it's teasing Enrique Jul 2012 #12
sometimes yes; sometimes no magical thyme Jul 2012 #18
Correct nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #14
I don't... one_voice Jul 2012 #17
Plus twothousandgazillion! peacebird Jul 2012 #20
Hate her! I'm sorry. Am I bad for that? cilla4progress Jul 2012 #72
My "pony envy" is the $77K tax writeoff mittens got for the horse. peacebird Jul 2012 #19
Easy enough. Cerridwen Jul 2012 #23
I have an up and coming akc hunting dog, can i write off his food&training&expenses? peacebird Jul 2012 #25
Depends whether it's a hobby or a business. Cerridwen Jul 2012 #27
and if you're able to do this gopiscrap Jul 2012 #118
Some people believe that sponsoring these ancient arts has value riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #122
That would be wonderful! xmas74 Jul 2012 #129
+ a billion or so. Why don't the Romneys support therapeutic riding programs? magical thyme Jul 2012 #145
they *claimed* the deduction. The IRS allowed $49.00 for this year. magical thyme Jul 2012 #46
It was $50, not $77K. hack89 Jul 2012 #48
I know several people who do or did dressage, and a few who will be at this year's Olympic Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #21
But what about the children? FLyellowdog Jul 2012 #22
Equestrian Sports are expensive, but so is skiing. Taverner Jul 2012 #24
Polo isn't that expensive. Warpy Jul 2012 #29
I've never been able to finagle an invite to Myopia AngryAmish Jul 2012 #146
Skiing is dirt cheap at Mars Hill in northern Maine. MADem Jul 2012 #38
Oh I know. I like semi-local ski area Dodge Ridge Taverner Jul 2012 #51
At Mars Hill they have free skiing one night a week. MADem Jul 2012 #55
Yeah. I remember seeing lots of lectures about how elitist hockey was in '08 Posteritatis Jul 2012 #109
Where I live, people play hockey in their backyard! MADem Jul 2012 #112
Yeah, same here Posteritatis Jul 2012 #116
+1,000 MADem Jul 2012 #121
In some places it's different. laundry_queen Jul 2012 #155
Heck, even regional level swimming is expensive. xmas74 Jul 2012 #63
Exactly. laundry_queen Jul 2012 #156
I told my daughter that I would find the money somehow if she wanted to stick with it. xmas74 Jul 2012 #158
And don't get me started on how expensive equestrian water skiing is! JVS Jul 2012 #169
I reject the term "pony envy" and the idea that it is really about envy fishwax Jul 2012 #26
I wanted one until I went to summer camp at the age of 11 Warpy Jul 2012 #28
I can understand that magical thyme Jul 2012 #75
No "pony envy" here. Just Mitten Bitten. nc4bo Jul 2012 #30
I have six horses. I guess 5 horses and a donkey. Blanks Jul 2012 #31
BS vin Jul 2012 #32
Wow, a member since 2001 and this is your first comment? TBF Jul 2012 #34
Most people don't grow up with pony envy. zeemike Jul 2012 #33
you can love the animal *and* love the sport.They aren't mutually exclusive. magical thyme Jul 2012 #40
No offence please...I am sure you love your horses. zeemike Jul 2012 #80
Every dressage movement is something a horse does in the wild, on their own riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #82
dressage is not unnatural and is not painful magical thyme Jul 2012 #88
Good grief she rode some beautiful horses! loudsue Jul 2012 #35
it is not ENVY handmade34 Jul 2012 #36
Bullshit. False premise. We didn't pay nearly eighty grand so Jackie/Caroline could trot around. MADem Jul 2012 #37
I don't understand your post. Cerridwen Jul 2012 #42
If you don't understand it, I urge you to read it again. MADem Jul 2012 #53
Wow. Cerridwen Jul 2012 #56
Wow. MADem Jul 2012 #60
Agreement? No. Cerridwen Jul 2012 #61
Why do you think I am angry? I am not. Not in the slightest. MADem Jul 2012 #65
More, very similar feedback woo me with science Jul 2012 #78
You didn't pay $77k. You paid $50. That's all that was allowed. Fifty bucks. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #83
The absolute nerve of those one percenters to even try to get a dime out of the taxpayers is what MADem Jul 2012 #124
She has a legitimate business and if you don't like the tax code for that, take it up with the IRS riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #132
No--I will continue to assert that her "legitimate" business is a bullshit hobby. MADem Jul 2012 #137
Horses aside, your post is really about "envy" - TBF Jul 2012 #39
I am not defending the Romneys, and am sorry you so misunderstand my post magical thyme Jul 2012 #89
How Ann treats her MS is not at issue here. TBF Jul 2012 #96
I did not write "you are all just jealous of the Romneys" magical thyme Jul 2012 #98
I think you did with that choice of words - TBF Jul 2012 #140
then it was a poor choice of words, and for that I apologize magical thyme Jul 2012 #143
Ah, interesting - TBF Jul 2012 #150
I would see it as redeeming if I felt her involvement were not so selfish magical thyme Jul 2012 #154
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Jul 2012 #157
The price of humor Godot51 Jul 2012 #41
I just bought a Pony two days ago! Archae Jul 2012 #43
It just goes to show you that republicans ruin everything they touch. gtar100 Jul 2012 #49
thank you for getting my point! magical thyme Jul 2012 #76
Some democrats ride, some own/shoot guns, some smoke, it used to be a big tent The Straight Story Jul 2012 #52
It still is a big tent. It's way more tolerant of differences than it was fifty years ago. MADem Jul 2012 #59
Ya know, I agree The Straight Story Jul 2012 #77
And freedom of speech is a biggie on that list, too. MADem Jul 2012 #114
Who would move to a non pony country? -..__... Jul 2012 #57
First thing that came to my mind. Union Scribe Jul 2012 #87
Very good! Puglover Jul 2012 #58
I Don't Have Pony Envy, But The RMoneys are obnoxious AnnieBW Jul 2012 #64
I moved out west from tony western NJ cilla4progress Jul 2012 #66
Sorry. $77,000 in tax breaks for horse expense isn't a hobby, it's a scam. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #68
They got $49.00 in tax deductions. magical thyme Jul 2012 #74
+++ cherokeeprogressive Jul 2012 #85
This post really makes me miss the unrec. n-t Logical Jul 2012 #79
I really appreciate all the wonky expertise (on just about any subject) here eridani Jul 2012 #84
OK, but the Kennedys are rich people treestar Jul 2012 #91
and they are democrats. magical thyme Jul 2012 #99
Nobody is really tearing it down treestar Jul 2012 #110
You can often find older horses for a very reasonable price, xmas74 Jul 2012 #133
If Romney's horse beat the competition at the olympic qualification matches JustABozoOnThisBus Jul 2012 #92
Any sport that can be done with a beer in one hand is a great sport. magical thyme Jul 2012 #102
So the Romneys are trying to be the Kennedys? Kennedy Envy! KurtNYC Jul 2012 #93
It's nice that some 1% sponsor some nobodies. JNelson6563 Jul 2012 #94
I learned FEI movements on somebody else's fully trained horse magical thyme Jul 2012 #106
So you validate my points. JNelson6563 Jul 2012 #107
I did NOT muck out the stables of the 1%. That is my point. magical thyme Jul 2012 #120
" Olympic competition is a sport of the 1%. Dressage in and of itself is not." riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #125
" DUers getting unhinged because Ann Rmoney..." 99Forever Jul 2012 #135
Back then, the rich paid more than their fair share of taxes--really!! The tax rate on the wealthy MADem Jul 2012 #138
After ... 99Forever Jul 2012 #95
the tried to take a $77K deduction. They were allowed a $49 deduction magical thyme Jul 2012 #103
Frankly... 99Forever Jul 2012 #105
I'm not defending elitist scum like the Romney's. I'm *condemning* them. magical thyme Jul 2012 #108
I have no problem with dressage or horse folks Marrah_G Jul 2012 #131
I'm gonna go out on a limb here... Marrah_G Jul 2012 #128
not very far out on that limb.... magical thyme Jul 2012 #136
Hahahahaha Marrah_G Jul 2012 #161
I rode my great grandpappy's mule once. CBGLuthier Jul 2012 #97
Oh, so now I'm just lealous of how rich they are? Iggo Jul 2012 #100
Why would you assume any of us were envious of their lifestyle of expensive prancing TwilightGardener Jul 2012 #111
for a couple reasons magical thyme Jul 2012 #134
Pony envy? <<<pfffft!>>> Horses were never anything but a pain in the ass Zorra Jul 2012 #117
Oh, for fucks sake Tsiyu Jul 2012 #139
Yup. nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #142
Wow. What a nasty, uncalled for post and horrible misdirected personal attack. Zorra Jul 2012 #163
You made the statement Tsiyu Aug 2012 #170
careful there. Someone could mistake you for Ann Romney magical thyme Jul 2012 #149
Yes. It was meant as "reality based black humor". Zorra Jul 2012 #165
"black humor" can get you into big trouble on the internets magical thyme Jul 2012 #168
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Jul 2012 #119
No fooling. 99Forever Jul 2012 #127
Every horse or pony I've ever owned I rode bareback and had a place to go in mind when I got on so lonestarnot Jul 2012 #126
I had a pony. This isn't "envy." It's disgust. Atman Jul 2012 #144
The $77K deduction was denied. $49 was allowed. magical thyme Jul 2012 #147
They'll have another shot at claiming tax deductions on their 2012 return. Atman Jul 2012 #148
You keep runnung that meme. 99Forever Jul 2012 #151
I own and operate the exact same dressage (and CT) business as the Rmoneys and Jan Ebeling riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #152
b.s. I've written that in all likelihood their so-called biz will end up declared a hobby magical thyme Jul 2012 #153
This message was self-deleted by its author TBF Jul 2012 #159
For folks who are interested in horses and the Olympics - TBF Jul 2012 #160
I'm terrified of horses and Republicans... Phentex Jul 2012 #162
lol, nope, never dreamed of having a pony quinnox Jul 2012 #164
I know three liberal Democrats who love riding horses. BlueCheese Jul 2012 #166
I stagger around a lot when I'm drunk. I call it Dressage, and I want a $70K writeoff. Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #167

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
4. Not every rider is a member of the GOP.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:37 PM
Jul 2012

There are plenty of Dems who ride. Some are competitive, some for hobby. I personally know some who own their own horses. A few of the horses were bred (and a bit pricey) but just as many are rescue.

I used to ride at a friend's house many years ago. They owned a simple farm but they competed-not on the big international level but local levels.

Not every rider is in the GOP, not every rider is 1%.

antigone382

(3,682 posts)
15. I was trained in a few of the foundation points of dressage...
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:57 PM
Jul 2012

...as well as hunt seat riding, and I'm pretty much a lifelong Dem. The world is not that black and white.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
2. K&R. The equestrian events were added in 1912 when the 99% rode horses
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:33 PM
Jul 2012

and the 1% rode in cars.

They were added to re-instate one of the original Athenian sports and to help the 99% actually have a sport they could compete in equally.

Retrograde

(10,068 posts)
50. I'm going to have to disagree with you there
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:37 PM
Jul 2012

Until the 1950s, IIRC, one had to be an officer to take part in the equestrian events, if Wikipedia is to be believed (and this matches my memory of the equestrian events in the 1936 film, Olympiad). Not exactly a level playing field, considering where officers usually came from. Athletics - especially the track events - were more of a level playing field.

Back to topic: I'm torn - I usually like watching the equestrian events for the horses, but with a Romney entry, I don't know.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
104. Just a tiny bit of bad luck and maybe Rafalca/Ebeling will fail spectacularly.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:06 AM
Jul 2012

Some people watch the combined training only to see the crashes...certainly in the past that's all the media showed.

Maybe Rafalca will leave Ebeling eating dirt in front of the world?

I wouldn't let that stop me from watching. One can always visit the fridge or the porcelain throne during their ride.

 

DefenseLawyer

(11,101 posts)
3. This is why DU is a beautiful place
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:37 PM
Jul 2012

There is nothing in the world in which someone on DU can't find a cause to fight for. Oh heavens, if you make fun of Mitt Romney's dancing horse you are attacking our entire American way of life! Come on people! We're better than that!

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
9. The poster in the OP rides
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:40 PM
Jul 2012

as do a number of people here on DU. Some of those posters are not competitive, not members of the 1%, but have been called out as such today. This is over the sport of dressage-beautiful if you can see it in person. (IMO, it's a bit like golf-incredible in person but a bit boring on a television screen. You definitely have to be there to really get the excitement.)

antigone382

(3,682 posts)
16. No, it's because a lot of us know one or two things about dressage...
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:00 PM
Jul 2012

...and some of the more outlandish attacks and criticisms are getting ridiculous and insulting to people who have nothing in common with the Romneys except for this one thing.

cilla4progress

(24,585 posts)
67. But who cares? I don't!!
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:34 PM
Jul 2012

And I'm a lifelong dressage rider!

I take this all with a very large grain of salt! Figure they don't much of which they speak!

antigone382

(3,682 posts)
73. Sure, and ultimately I know there's nothing to be done about it.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:43 PM
Jul 2012

People will make fun of the fancy French word sport with the horses and top-hats because someone they don't like is doing it. But there are points when I think it is necessary to assert the diversity of human pursuits and the non-black-and-white nature of reality.

cilla4progress

(24,585 posts)
113. I agree! And I'm a diehard lefty
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:07 AM
Jul 2012

who enjoys country music, and western riding (trail) along with dressage and jumping. It's hard sometimes crossing categorical descriptions!

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
130. I enjoy the fun-poking, the "horse prom," the "horse they danced in on," etc.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:42 AM
Jul 2012

and I certainly understand the rage at the attempted $77K tax deduction, and the sticker shock. Many of us were priced out of "our" sport years ago, and resent it. I'm long past the sticker shock, but certainly I resent on every level the misuse of all that essentially stolen money. A lot of jobs, education, and food could have been provided through money lost to loopholes and tax evasion.

Using the clothes to claim "elitist" is as silly as using a figure skater's costume to claim "elitist." It is simply formal attire to replace formal military attire, mark the occasion and highlight the elegance of the horse.

And I do have a problem with certain posters who have repeatedly made ridiculous claims about dressage being cruel, abusive, unnatural, etc. simply because the Romneys are involved with it or because they have no deep experience or understanding of it and/or horses, or are envious of people who can do it. I find it interesting that in this thread so far only one has popped up with that claim.

There are people on this board who make a living teaching and training dressage. There are others who have done so in the past (me) and who now has a youngster in her back yard in basic training. They are by inference calling us abusers.

That pisses me off because it is 1. factually incorrect and 2. potentially libelous.


A HERETIC I AM

(24,317 posts)
45. Likewise, there is nothing too petty, inconsequential, idiotic, pointless or downright (edited)
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:27 PM
Jul 2012

fucking stupid that some DU'er won't get all worked up over.

Be it a complete and utter misunderstanding of a simple scientific experiment to the mere fact that someone they don't know and will never know does something they don't like because they think ONLY "rich people" do it.


The OP is absolutely god damned spot fucking on. If He/She hadn't written it, I probably would have. I said as much in another thread

There are PLENTY of things to hate the Romney's for. The mere fact that they, like many hundreds of thousands of other Americans of all political stripes have an Equestrian related business and participate in a sport most DU'ers apparently can't fathom is not one of them.

Threads deriding the Romney's for their participation in the Olympics make this website, or more accurately the individuals putting up those threads, look foolish, petty, uninformed, pedestrian and whiny.

If Mitt Romney is elected President it will be a god damned catastrophe for this nation. But if their horse wins a medal in London...well....good for them.


On edit to add in the thread I linked above, I mentioned I rode when I was younger and if I had the chance, I would have loved to participate in Dressage. This is the horse it would have been on;



That was "Robber Boy", a 7 year old Gelding Thoroughbred I looked after while I lived in Alice Springs, Australia in the early 1970's. He was a great animal and we had a wonderful relationship. I cherish the time I spent with him, even these 38 years later.

That is NOT me up, BTW. I was never a Jockey.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
5. k&r
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:38 PM
Jul 2012


When I lived in WI, there was dressage at the county fair. None of those participants were even in the ballpark of wealthy. They kept their horses on the family farm, pooled their money for training.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
62. I've watched it at county fairs
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:12 PM
Jul 2012

and it's wonderful. The kids really spent lots of quality time with their animals and it showed.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
7. My problem with them is that they write her hobby off as a business
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:38 PM
Jul 2012

They already have made millions off the sweat and tears of working class families and then have the NERVE to call her hobby a business so they have even more tax write offs.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
10. They do run a legitimate business - training, boarding, breeding, sales.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:50 PM
Jul 2012

Unless you want to call my entire life's work a "hobby" and that I should never get to take standard business deductions.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
13. Nope. None. I've seen Ann Rmoney at events
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:55 PM
Jul 2012

and my husband's competed against her rider, Jan Ebeling.

Granted, they are doing it at a much higher level and expense than we are but the basics are all the same everywhere.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
44. "Granted, they are doing it at a much higher level and expense"
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:25 PM
Jul 2012

Not only "much higher" but obscenely higher. Its like the difference between a Lamborghini and a Ford pickup. They live in a different world and thats why they will never understand the plight of regular Americans.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
70. Do you do it primarily to make a profit?
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:36 PM
Jul 2012

If so, it's a business. If not, like Ann Romney, you're simply scamming the rest of us to subsidize your hobby.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
81. She has to make a profit to be structured as a business or get hit by the IRS
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 11:23 PM
Jul 2012

You can't just set your hobby up, and then proceed to lose money every year. While I MUST make money every year or we won't eat, the Rmoney's can probably afford to have losing years. Still, they MUST show a profit in some years (don't quote me on this, I believe you have 6 years where you can show a loss and then you must show a profit or your business is re-classified as a hobby and you are liable to the IRS for those back years' tax writeoffs).

The Rmoney's have been at this for many years. They will have to have shown a profit.

KurtNYC

(14,549 posts)
90. Don't they write it off as "therapy" ?
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:42 AM
Jul 2012

If yes, we must have different doctors than they do. Mine has never written me a prescription for: 1 dancing war horse.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
101. No. Her riding therapy is her private riding on her private horses.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:52 AM
Jul 2012

It is not a prescribed therapy or medical deduction. It is simply an activity that she finds therapeutic. Btw, riding horses is considered therapy for many disabilities, both physical and emotional, and used to be pretty widely available. There was a center just a few miles from my house and the little girl across the street from me participated. Sadly, due to funding cuts, the center closed. Too bad Ann and Mitt can't see beyond themselves and support such centers to help those who can't afford it. That is another legitimate criticism of the Romney's.

The tax write-off (which failed, btw) is a partnership with their trainer and another partner. They jointly own "Rafalca," the Olympic horse, as a business.

If and when they sell Rafalca, they will realize either profits or losses. And like any other business, if they fail to show a profit after some number of years, it is declared a hobby and no deductions are available.

They tried to claim a $77,000 deduction for their expenses as part owners of Rafalca. I don't know how many years those expenses covered, but they were only allowed a $49 deduction for 2010.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
123. They did not make millions and millions off their horse business.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:29 AM
Jul 2012

There's an old saying in the horse biz - do you want to know how to make a little money with horses? Start out with a lot of money.

Mitt Rmoney made his money doing despicable things. The horses however have been nothing more than a money pit though, I'll guarantee you that. Nobody makes millions and millions - ever.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
18. sometimes yes; sometimes no
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:12 PM
Jul 2012

I laugh every time I read about the "horse prom" or "eff the Romneys and the horse they danced in on."

But some of what has been posted has been just plain rude, mean-spirited, factually incorrect and abusive of us dressage people.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
17. I don't...
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:02 PM
Jul 2012

begrudge anyone having horses. Whether it's just for riding on your farm or competition. My grandparents had horses. I was lucky as a child to be around these beautiful creatures. Ours were just for pleasure but even for pleasure they're an expensive. If I'm ever financially able I'd love to have horses, I'd probably rescue, but it would still be a luxury.

Let me be clear as to my problem with the Romneys. Mittwit and his if you want free stuff vote for the other guy, mr. smaller government, cutting safety nets for the most vulnerable...

but there's this....

This is my issue...I WILL NOT back off of this...




They're soulless and heartless....

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
19. My "pony envy" is the $77K tax writeoff mittens got for the horse.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:28 PM
Jul 2012

Where do WE get a tax writeoff like that?

Cerridwen

(13,251 posts)
23. Easy enough.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:40 PM
Jul 2012

Spend a few 10s of thousands of dollars on an up and coming dressage prospect.

Feed it. Provide farrier service regularly. Make sure it stays up to date on its vaccines. Keep it free from worms and other parasites. Pray it has good feet.

Provide a safe and better-than-adequate pasture/turnout and barn for it to live well and healthy without injuring itself. Have access to the appropriate sized arena for training.

Then, train it or hire a trainer for the various levels. Compete; entry fees, travel expenses, boarding expenses, rooming expenses for the people. Hire a groom, or do it yourself, to keep the horse looking competition ready; or at least for the competition. Hire or learn to ride in competitions. Win; lots. Make a name for yourself. Pray your horse doesn't have any unexpected medical issues that result in it not being able to compete or worse.

Do this until the horse is well trained and ready to win bigger competitions.

Keep track of all the expenses. Note them correctly on your tax returns.

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
25. I have an up and coming akc hunting dog, can i write off his food&training&expenses?
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:50 PM
Jul 2012

If not, why not?
Is my animal hobby less worthy than dressage?

Cerridwen

(13,251 posts)
27. Depends whether it's a hobby or a business.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:59 PM
Jul 2012

I believe some turn their hobby into a business and get away with it; others, maybe not. I believe the romneys were once questioned(?) about their deductions being business or hobby.

There may be a way for you to do so but you'd have to check with a very good CPA. I know some CPAs specialize, including those who specialize in running certain types of business.

Have you seen "doggie dressage"? It's quite cute and fun to watch. You can find many videos on youtube.

Dressage is no more nor less special than Thoroughbred racing or Quarter horse racing as a business or breeding animals as a business, including various dog breeds, and so on. I imagine some in rodeo or barrel-racing manage to also claim business expenses if they provide breeding or sales or training.

The biggest difference with dressage, is most in the US didn't know shit about it; refuse to learn about it; and now despise it because the rich romneys participate and have used their activities as a business.



gopiscrap

(23,673 posts)
118. and if you're able to do this
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:10 AM
Jul 2012

you're making too much money...why not donate that sort of money to a charity so it will do some good instead of prancing around with a horse?

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
122. Some people believe that sponsoring these ancient arts has value
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:27 AM
Jul 2012

and is a sort of charity. Just like fencing, shooting, archery, rowing - these are old battle skills that would be lost without heavy sponsorship so the athletes can train, and have great equipment etc. The equestrian events are no different. They need sponsors to keep them alive.

You can debate whether maintaining ancient horse skills is a necessary thing but the Rmoneys have chosen to do this.

Personally, I don't understand why the Rmoneys haven't started a therapeutic riding program as a charity - now THAT would be first class.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
129. That would be wonderful!
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:42 AM
Jul 2012

A therapeutic riding program would fall in line with her MS and it would be wonderful for the community it served. I would respect them a bit more for it.

(I didn't say I'd vote for him, just that I'd give him a bit of respect.)

And there is something to sponsoring the ancient sports. I'd hate to see them die out and I wish more would learn to appreciate them.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
145. + a billion or so. Why don't the Romneys support therapeutic riding programs?
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:52 AM
Jul 2012

Ann has repeatedly credited dressage with helping to put her MS into remission. She has reaped all the benefits of it, so she of all people understands the good it can do for people with physical and emotional ailments.

If she truly wanted to support riding and do real good she would support riding programs that provide the same benefits to others.

A therapeutic horse program near me had to close down recently due to lack of funding. The little girl across the street now has no horse to ride.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
46. they *claimed* the deduction. The IRS allowed $49.00 for this year.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:28 PM
Jul 2012

Any future deductions will be incremental and depend on any profits or losses.

Look, I get that *totally.* They are super-rich and they can take advantage of tax laws intended for real businesses, not hobbies that provide convenient losses for other businesses. And that is not right.

But they may also be getting a lesson that making an actual profit in the horse business is not as easy as it looks, no matter how much money you have to throw at it.

They have invested in the purchase, training, competition and care of an Olympic horse over the course of many years. That's a huge expense. Any profit will be from the sale of the horse, and if there is no profit, they lose their business status and she becomes a hobby, plain and simple.

Their business partner, Ebeling, is *paid* to train, to teach, to provide care to horses other than the Rafalca, as well as to select and purchase and sell horses for clients other than the Romney's, along with Ann's personal horses. He has horse business income they do not have.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
48. It was $50, not $77K.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:31 PM
Jul 2012
The way this works is that the Romneys, the Ebelings, and Beth Meyers have together formed a corporate entity called "Rob Rom Enterprises LLC," which owns Rafalca and pays for his upkeep. The Romneys reported $77,731 in "passive losses" related to their investment in Rob Rom Enterprises, but of that their account only deemed $50 to be actually eligible for deduction. The forms don't explain the thinking behind that, but it's probably because losses from your horse corporation can't be used to offset unrelated income. If Rafalca had brought in more money, then Rafalca's care and feeding expenses could be deducted from that income, but in 2010 Rob Rom Enterprises doesn't seem to have had much income.


http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/06/19/clarifying_the_record_on_mitt_romney_s_77_000_losses_olympic_horse_rafalca.html
 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
21. I know several people who do or did dressage, and a few who will be at this year's Olympic
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:31 PM
Jul 2012

events. So I'm not one who thinks this is defined by the Romneys and most of the people I know who did such riding are far from wealthy, not at all conservative, they are horse lovers.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
24. Equestrian Sports are expensive, but so is skiing.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:41 PM
Jul 2012

As well as owning a boat or being on an actual Polo team.

Warpy

(110,900 posts)
29. Polo isn't that expensive.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:04 PM
Jul 2012

The local polo club in a small town in Mass. was made up of people whose uniform was Cape Cod Formal* and whose polo ponies were middle aged horses bought cheap and housed in back yards.

They routinely beat the pants off the toney Myopia Hunt Club.

*jeans with no holes in them and a clean plaid shirt with all its buttons

MADem

(135,425 posts)
38. Skiing is dirt cheap at Mars Hill in northern Maine.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:57 PM
Jul 2012

Even with lessons--very affordable. Equipment rentals are cheap, too.

You just have to go to places that aren't "Aspen" or equivalent.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
51. Oh I know. I like semi-local ski area Dodge Ridge
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:38 PM
Jul 2012

Been around since forever, still less than $50 @, rentals are cheap - but in the end it does run in the $100 per person realm.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
55. At Mars Hill they have free skiing one night a week.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:50 PM
Jul 2012

If you're over seventy (maybe sixty five, I will have to check) you ski for free, too.

I got one of the kids a snowboarding lesson to try it out--forty bucks for one-on-one with a really good instructor for over an hour--all the equipment included. If he wanted to keep going on his own he had the use of the stuff for the rest of the day. He said screw it and went tubing instead...! (The tubing was included in that cost).

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
109. Yeah. I remember seeing lots of lectures about how elitist hockey was in '08
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:37 AM
Jul 2012

Palin's kids played it, you see, therefore it's automatically patrician as hell and no Real Person could ever afford to.

People were actually arguing the point at length, which still throws me for a loop when I think about it.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
112. Where I live, people play hockey in their backyard!
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:52 AM
Jul 2012

They slap down tarps, make a border with what have you, and create homemade rinks.

It's one way of keeping the little monsters close to home!

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
116. Yeah, same here
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:09 AM
Jul 2012

Bunch of kids are actually playing street hockey up the road from me right now.

And it was even more common where I grew up, in one of the most economically hosed parts of one of the poorer provinces here.

Seeing threads about how hockey is some kind of rarified pastime for the ruling classes, and seeing how obviously convinced people were about that, just baffled the hell out of me. (If anything it was the other way around; not playing hockey as a kid marked people as snobs.)

MADem

(135,425 posts)
121. +1,000
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:24 AM
Jul 2012
If anything it was the other way around; not playing hockey as a kid marked people as snobs.

I grew up with that vibe as well. Of course, back in the dark ages, there were no home-made backyard rinks, kids went out and played, unsupervised, with no parents/coaches/team jerseys, more often than not without head protection, on frozen lakes, in hand-me-down skates stuffed with newspaper to make 'em fit, with home-made, half-assed goals, and some Billy or Bobby or Pierre always went through a thin spot in the ice every season and damn near died (but never did, at least in my experience!).

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
155. In some places it's different.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:02 PM
Jul 2012

In some places, where there is a shortage of ice, yearly costs can be quite high. If you have more than 1 kid it's out of reach. I'm a single mom who is in school full time and I'm thankful I have girls who don't give a crap about ice hockey (although it makes me sad, I always wanted to be a hockey mom, lol but at least one of them plays floor hockey through school) because there's no way I could afford to even register one of them in hockey. As it was, they were in dance last year and they won't be this year - too much $$.

By the way, my parents spent thousands and thousands every year on my brother's hockey. It's not too expensive until you get to higher levels and teams are chartering buses and you are travelling all over going to junior A tryouts, AAA championships, and spending your summer in hotel rooms, and needing $400 (in the 90's) skates every 6 months and breaking $50 sticks every few days (such is the life of a defenseman with a kick ass slapshot).

Also in more remote areas, it's not unusual to spend thousands in hotels and gas every year just to be able to play other towns.

Street hockey is, of course, available to everyone.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
63. Heck, even regional level swimming is expensive.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:25 PM
Jul 2012

You can't buy the suits at the local Walmart or even Old Navy-they have to be ordered from a specialty company. The suits can easily be a couple of hundred-a cheap practice suit is between $100-150-and you'd better have a few practice suits. Then the team suit is upwards of $200. Practice caps-$25-30, team a bit higher and you need a few of each because they can tear. Goggles-practice between 20-100, competition is higher.

Then there is team registration fees, monthly team fees, monthly pool fees, locker room fees, competition registration fees, travel fees (gas, motel, food and that's if it's in driving range). If you want to better your stroke, smooth out your dive, speed up your start, or work on your turns that's private lessons, which are charged by the half hour. If you think you're child is pretty good then there are camps involved-lots of camps. And the competitions-be ready for at least every other weekend. Meets start at 7am so you'd better be in the crash area no later than 5:30, though your practice might be even earlier. (Meets can easily have dozens of teams.) And be prepared to be there until 8-10pm that night.

Oh, and heaven forbid you're child is really good. I know someone on the verge of taking a second mortgage, because their child swims AA times. Then the suits can easily be $1000 and up, and flight time now figures into your travels. And don't be surprised if it's every weekend.

In other words, if someone is really good at what they do they can rack up the expenses quickly.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
156. Exactly.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:12 PM
Jul 2012

Like hockey, just to register your 6 year old in swimming/dance/whatever lessons isn't super expensive. However, once your child moves up and gets good, the elite levels for poorer people are simply out of reach - in any sport. The equipment, the travelling, the restaurant food, hotel rooms, etc. Crazy expensive. My parents spent thousands a year on my brother's hockey, back in the 90's. Easily 1/8 of their income was gone every year so my brother could play on elite teams. That means several months worth of food to someone in poverty.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
158. I told my daughter that I would find the money somehow if she wanted to stick with it.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:35 PM
Jul 2012

We don't have that kind of money sitting around but I would have found a way. In some cities I knew people so we had a place to stay, if need be. We could buy food from the grocery store before we left the state instead of dining out, etc. It's the registration, the event registration, the private lessons, equipment, etc that really kills you.

Any sport in which a child reaches an advanced level quickly becomes far too expensive for the average person. My kid had a good backstroke and, if focused, could have been a good IM'er. She chose not to but others do it and the cost is sky high.

It's not just equine sports that are expensive.

fishwax

(29,146 posts)
26. I reject the term "pony envy" and the idea that it is really about envy
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:53 PM
Jul 2012

But I do know people who are definitely not 1%'ers who have been involved in riding, including some dressage.

Warpy

(110,900 posts)
28. I wanted one until I went to summer camp at the age of 11
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:02 PM
Jul 2012

and found that riding a horse looked like a lot more fun than it actually was and that I strongly preferred a bicycle.

So horse envy? Not me. I find the horsey types odd in the extreme, although I've certainly been known to save carrot and turnip ends to feed them for treats.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
75. I can understand that
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 10:01 PM
Jul 2012

Camp horses tend to be very "abuse tolerant" so not terribly responsive to the aids. They are easy to sit on, but harder to ride than a private horse that is handled with consistency.

I didn't like bicycle riding. My sister got a new 3-speed. I got my other sister's hand-me-down 1-speed when all my friends were riding 3-speeds.

Later on I bought myself a 3-speed. I got ear aches when I rode it; I have no idea why.

I've been on a race horse on a track in a full out gallop, with the wind whipping my eyes to tears and literally whistling in my ears. No ear aches.

I let a 3-speed bike cruise down a slope. Ear aches.

A co-worker of mine is a bicyclist. He goes flying by my house almost every day. Only once has he said hello. Dresses incredibly funny too. Bright-colored speedos down the street. Neon green scrubs at the lab.

Go figure

nc4bo

(17,651 posts)
30. No "pony envy" here. Just Mitten Bitten.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:05 PM
Jul 2012

Horses everywhere here. I look forward to my Republican friend calling me up to pick up a trailer load of well rotted, pasture fed, manure for my garden. She barrel races btw.

My problem is Mr. and Mrs. "You People". Other than that, I've no problem with horses or their owners.

Blanks

(4,835 posts)
31. I have six horses. I guess 5 horses and a donkey.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:10 PM
Jul 2012

It is my understanding that folks that own horses as a business get to claim a loss for longer than most businesses. This makes sense because I'm sure it takes a long time to get established in the industry.

My aunt always had horses when I was young, and my wife's grandfather used to raise draft horses. So we're both kind of used to being around horses.

I have horses just because they keep the grass on our parcel nice and short. We have saddles, but we rarely ride them. I go out and feed them every day and interact with them, they're just like big dogs that eat grass to me.

I don't know that anyone who has a horse has to be a lot wealthier than anyone else, but it's like owning a pool; they require a lot of time and upkeep for some benefit. In the end; it's a lifestyle choice. I expect I'll have horses until I can't afford to.

I certainly don't begrudge horse owners anymore than I do people with a swimming pool or even a bass boat. It's just something you choose to do.

TBF

(31,920 posts)
34. Wow, a member since 2001 and this is your first comment?
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:28 PM
Jul 2012

Interesting.

Not all horseback riding is fancy dressage and polo. I had a free pony when I was a teenager because one of my dad's factory co-workers had a daughter who went off to college. We lived in the country and had an old barn on our 5 acre property that my dad was able to fix up. He put up slats on his truck so the horse wouldn't fall out, and purchased some hay at a neighboring farm.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
33. Most people don't grow up with pony envy.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:27 PM
Jul 2012

It is only a small number of kids that want ponies...most kids want cars or go carts or something that does not require constant maintenance....and in this day and age you don't have to be rich to own one but at least well off unless you live on a farm where you can keep the horse and raise feed for it.
And I have know lots of horse owners like that...they like the animal not the "sport". and when they go for a ride none of them dress like that.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
40. you can love the animal *and* love the sport.They aren't mutually exclusive.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:07 PM
Jul 2012

and you dress "like that" for competition. Dressage competition is like all competition; a formal event with standardized clothes. When I showed, I dressed appropriately. The rest of the time, breeches, boots and black gloves for comfort and functionality. T-shirt, sweatshirt, jacket or parka by season. Helmet with my last horse because barns and their insurance required them with punishment of eviction; in earlier years, no helmet and wind in my hair.

Maybe its a country kid thing or a girl thing, but when I was a kid every girl I knew wanted a pony.

People ride western and don't dress in formal western vest, chaps, expensive boots, fancy 10-gallon hat, etc.

People swim and don't dress like competitive divers or racers or synchronized swimmers.

People dance and don't dress like ballroom dance competitors.

People ice skate and don't dress like competitive figure skaters.

People endurance ride and...well, they do all dress pretty much the same in competition as pleasure rides.


But I think you can get my drift.





zeemike

(18,998 posts)
80. No offence please...I am sure you love your horses.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 11:06 PM
Jul 2012

But from my POV I would never make a house do something unnatural and probably painful to amuse people with....but that is just me.
A horse is a wonderful creature and if you love him he will love you back and try to do what you want him to....but I don't want him to be anything but a horse I can ride...and when I ride I don't want to amuse people.

Again that is just me...and those are radical ideas in this land.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
82. Every dressage movement is something a horse does in the wild, on their own
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 11:31 PM
Jul 2012

So if they are doing it in the wild, its not painful.

Its also not unnatural - its training to produce the movements on command and in sync with a rider.

Plenty of people ride dressage for their own pleasure, unconcerned with amusing others. Dressage is fun like that - it can be all about you and your backyard trail horse improving your balance, response, coordination, flexibility, suppleness for the trail. Or it can be for competition. Or it can be to make a smoother ride for your handicapped daughter. Or it can be so you have a more effective roping horse when you go out to get the cattle....

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
88. dressage is not unnatural and is not painful
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:26 AM
Jul 2012

Everything in dressage is based on horse's natural movement and behavior in the wild and playing in their pastures. If it were painful, they simply would not do it, with or without a rider. The goal of dressage is to create harmony between horse and rider. Whether you are a backyard trail rider, a western cowboy, or are competing in any discipline, dressage simply facilitates communication between horse and rider, improves the horse's balance under a rider, and reduces the likelihood of injuries and muscle soreness for either party.

Horses are natural athletes; they like and need to use their bodies to stay healthy.

The high level dressage movements in the wild or in their pasture are an expression of exuberance. You will see it mostly among playing foals and youngsters, but also older horses with excess energy to burn off.

Here are some pictures that demonstrate horses performing upper level movements at play in their pastures:

Passage:


Pirouette:


Levade:


Dressage competition is not about amusing people; it's intended to test the quality of the horse's training. That some people enjoy watching it is a side effect.

Likewise, dressage performances are more for educating everyday people about horses, and horse people about specific breeds of horses. The Spanish Riding School periodically tours to educate and fund-raise. Vitor Silva, a portuguese master, puts on a couple performances each year, again to educate people about his beloved Lusitano horses.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
37. Bullshit. False premise. We didn't pay nearly eighty grand so Jackie/Caroline could trot around.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:54 PM
Jul 2012

Equivalence fail.

Annie's little tax deduction will remain on my radar until November, like it or not.

Cerridwen

(13,251 posts)
42. I don't understand your post.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:09 PM
Jul 2012

The OP used...as an example...pictures of a rather famous Democratic family to show that there are Democrats who ride, in various disciplines. I imagine she could have used pictures of other Democrats; for example, the riders who post to this board. I doubt you would have recognized them, though. I'm pretty sure she wasn't comparing the Kennedys to the romneys; but I may have missed something.

Many others in this thread have also noted that they ride. The OP was pointing out that damning the sport of dressage just because the romneys have abused their privilege isn't a reason to ridicule or despise the sport. And that yes, Democrats too, ride, compete, train, and maybe even have a business in the horse world.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
53. If you don't understand it, I urge you to read it again.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:41 PM
Jul 2012
We didn't pay seventy seven grand in taxpayer money for Jackie and Caroline to ride their horses. That's the bottom line.


We did pay that for Annie's horse. Our tax dollars paid for her little hobby--and it's a "business" like I'm an astronaut.

She WAS comparing the Kennedys to the RMoneys--don't say anything bad about Annie's horse, look, look at Jackie! Look at Caroline! Be quiet! Don't say anything! Criticizing them is .... BAD.

Not everyone has to like what others like, and if they want to make fun of it, so what? I like stupid shit that other people don't like, but I'm not so damned insecure that if someone makes fun of, say, my love for vintage television programming, or my enjoyment of classical Persian food, that I'd need to retreat to a far corner and cry about it. Don't like it? Fine--all the more for me.

I'm tired of being lectured to not hurt the feelings of Imperial assholes who possess no redeeming social values--fuck them AND that horse they rode in on.

The thread title "It's past time to end the pony envy" suggests first, that we are "envious" of Annie's horsies in every barn and caddies in every garage--I find her consumption conspicuous and if I had her dough I would give most of it away, so there's a Big Fail. And then we're scolded with examples, oh, look at the "Good Democrats" on horsies.

I didn't see Jackie or Caroline fielding horsies or riders at the Olympics so they could "write off" their expenses.

Bullshit is what I call--the premise of this thread is crap, and I'll keep crapping on Annie in her thousand dollar tee shirts and her dancing horse if I so desire.

You can ignore me if my differing opinion offends, I won't mind! To each his or her own, I say!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
60. Wow.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:08 PM
Jul 2012

You don't agree with my POV, so you toss an insult. I'm not "serious and reasoned" SOLELY because I don't agree with you.

Your mistake, indeed, thinking that umbrage and an insult will help your argument.

I'm not demanding that you see things my way. You, OTOH, are insulting me because I don't see things your way.

Have a great night, yourself.

Cerridwen

(13,251 posts)
61. Agreement? No.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:11 PM
Jul 2012

Serious anger coming from that post.

I started to reply in depth and I realized that nothing I said would get past the anger you displayed. That was all I meant. I was ham-handed in how I said it. I'm sorry for that.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
65. Why do you think I am angry? I am not. Not in the slightest.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:31 PM
Jul 2012

Please don't project your POV on me.

You're the one stomping off with the "wow" comment. Let's be real, here. You're mad because I don't see things your way, and you're trying to characterize me in personal ways because you are the one who is "angry" that I don't agree with your world view.

First you insult, now you ascribe emotion?

What next?

I already told you that I TRULY don't demand that you see things my way. People actually can have differing views on a topic and THE WORLD WILL NOT END.

I don't "hate" people who don't agree with me about stupid shit like horses--in fact, I don't care one bit if people hold different views on those sorts of topics. That's what makes life interesting.

As for "anger," I get angry at Republicans who cut Head Start and School Lunches and Medicare entitlements and unemployment benefits and safety net programs for the sick and elderly. You want to see me pissed off, you go on and take the GOP side of those sorts of issues and we can have a little chat.

Annie and her horsies? That's just horse shit. And I will continue to make fun of her entitled ass from now till November and I'll enjoy doing it, too. You don't have to agree, but don't take my joyful goading as anger--that's a total mis-read on your part. And don't try to bully me into shutting up about her overly-indulged and pampered lifestyle, either--that will not work at all.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
83. You didn't pay $77k. You paid $50. That's all that was allowed. Fifty bucks.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 11:33 PM
Jul 2012

Of course that fun fact continues to fly right by you as you persist in misinformation.

Just because the Rmoneys tried to claim a $77k deduction doesn't mean it was allowed.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
124. The absolute nerve of those one percenters to even try to get a dime out of the taxpayers is what
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:30 AM
Jul 2012

offends. Fifty bucks, even, is fifty bucks too much. They shouldn't have even tried to pass off her little hobby as a business.

Of course, none of us have the slightest idea how much she got back from We The People in previous years. It would not surprise me in the slightest if she got a payday in the past, otherwise, why go to all the trouble of itemizing? Who goes to the well without expecting a nice drink of water?

And none of us will know, either, until Mittsy the Shittsy-Twittsy releases his returns.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
132. She has a legitimate business and if you don't like the tax code for that, take it up with the IRS
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:44 AM
Jul 2012

You'll get no disagreement from me on that.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
137. No--I will continue to assert that her "legitimate" business is a bullshit hobby.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:10 AM
Jul 2012

If you want to extrapolate from my remarks that others with legitimate businesses that are similar in function are bullshitting hobbyists, you would be incorrect.

I'd love to take it up with the IRS, but without her tax returns for the last four to seven years , or Mittsy's, there's not much to go on.

TBF

(31,920 posts)
39. Horses aside, your post is really about "envy" -
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:06 PM
Jul 2012

Are you accusing dems of being envious of the Romneys?

It is not horses that are the problem. The issue is that the Romneys have acquired scads of money (sometimes in questionable ways - particularly the Bain Capital activities) and are in that very top 1/10th of the top 1% of this country. They have no clue what it is like to be "middle" or poor - which is what most of the rest of the 99% are ... The person who is writing off business assets, storing his money in off-shore accounts, and refusing to release his tax returns just may not be the best person to be representing us. Why are you defending this candidate who is so out of touch with how most of the people in this country live?

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
89. I am not defending the Romneys, and am sorry you so misunderstand my post
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:32 AM
Jul 2012

Look at the many other posts I've written on the topic. I have, and continue to, condemn the Romneys in every way, shape and form. I despise them as much as anybody. I really, really, really wish Ann had found some other sport to treat her MS.

TBF

(31,920 posts)
96. How Ann treats her MS is not at issue here.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:10 AM
Jul 2012

So you like horses, that's fine. But you really stepped in it here by posting pictures of ruling class folks enjoying their "sport". Kennedy's are 1% ers too and really don't help your case. I like horses too, my grandfather raised them, and I had one as a teenager. It is certainly possible for average folks to do this when you live in the country, have a little land and can buy the local hay cheap. But that is a different level - that is not jaunting around the globe performing your dressage and writing off $70K in losses on your taxes.

If you want to write an OP about loving horses and how lower income folks can enjoy them please go ahead. But don't start your conversation by saying "you all are just jealous of the romneys" and expect us to put up with that BS.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
98. I did not write "you are all just jealous of the Romneys"
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:30 AM
Jul 2012

nor did I imply it.

I wrote many people grew up wanting a pony. That has certainly been my experience, both as a suburban kid and as an adult. I have personally experienced other people's pony envy at every possible level, whether they didn't have a pony of their own or whether they envied my rescued, self-trained arab's ability to outperform their $100+K imported "rescued from the Olympics" that they couldn't ride. (Yes, I actually had a 1%er make that claim.)

And many people on this board have been tearing down the sport of dressage simply because the Romney's participate in it.

When people with zero knowledge of dressage claim it is abuse, they are by inference calling dressage trainers and riders horse abusers, plain and simple.

Yes Kennedy's are 1%ers; they are also democrats. When people here piss on riders and rider's sports, and spread lies about the sport, they're pissing on fellow democrats.

I am addressing those issues.


As far as the Romney's *attempt* to claim a $77K write-off, they failed. They got a $49 deduction.

And yes, I resent their globe-trotting purchase of participation in the Olympics. They ruin the sport for everybody.

TBF

(31,920 posts)
140. I think you did with that choice of words -
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:26 AM
Jul 2012

it sounds like a catchy title but the problem is it puts your argument squarely in right-wing camp and I wasn't the only one to notice that. Right-wingers dismiss democrats as angry because they are "jealous" - completely dismissing the real economic inequalities that exist because of capitalism.

That is what set me off, and others as well. Loving horses and who can own them is a different OP ...

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
143. then it was a poor choice of words, and for that I apologize
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:40 AM
Jul 2012

As a lifelong horse person, I have been on many occasions the target of pony-envy. It apparently impacted my view of the world and why some people get so weird (from my own perspective) about horses in general and dressage in particular.

There is a particular, small group of posters in the back of my mind when I started this thread, that have repeatedly popped up in recent weeks with nasty attacks on dressage and, by inference, dressage riders and trainers. None of them seems interested in replying here, which leaves me thinking they know who they are and I did hit my mark.

I am sorry that I also apparently hit some others in the wrong way. It truly was inadvertent and not intended as a broad-brush attack on anybody who criticizes dressage and horses, but to call out those individuals who have specifically attacked the discipline.

TBF

(31,920 posts)
150. Ah, interesting -
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:19 PM
Jul 2012

I personally think that dressage is pretty cool and have had my daughter take some classes. There is another activity that she likes better (children's theatre) so we put most of our effort into that, but I had wanted to introduce her to horses and she will often ask if she can do horse camp if we have a few weeks free. So we do it here and there - as you know it's not an inexpensive hobby. It's definitely not dressage that makes Ann intolerable - in fact I see this activity as one of her few redeeming factors.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
154. I would see it as redeeming if I felt her involvement were not so selfish
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:56 PM
Jul 2012

Her decision to dump her horse, Super Hit, exactly when it became clear he could no longer perform to expectations, and then his being drugged up in order to dupe the buyer to the tune of $125, turns my stomach. That she was dropped from the ensuing lawsuit does not clear her in my mind. There is no way you can be riding at that level and not *know* something serious is wrong and not *know* your horse has been drugged. She may not have known how heavily he was drugged, but no way she didn't know. And she remained loyal to Ebeling, who probably did the drugging, and who has now gotten her to the Olympics.

To me, she doesn't love horses or dressage so much as she loves what they can do for her.

And it confirms to me everything else we see about the Romneys. Their horse gave everything he had to give. They rewarded him not with a decent semi-retirement or full retirement, but by drugging him, using him to the bitter end, and then dumping him. Not unlike gutting a business and leaving the employees that built that business to fend for themselves.

Response to magical thyme (Reply #89)

Godot51

(239 posts)
41. The price of humor
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:09 PM
Jul 2012

Sorry but "Dressage", like "Synchronized Smiling, er Swimming", is an odd looking "sport" that encourages humorous responses from an uneducated and tone-deaf public; no matter the degree of difficulty or the expertise needed to accomplish it.

It suits the image of the Romney family as disconnected and wealthy. They didn't clean stables or raise horses, they hired people to do such things and purchased horses. This is where the ridicule comes in.

No one, especially no American, would criticize horse ownership (or swimming pool ownership, for that matter). Horses are an entrenched part of our history, mythology and legacy.

Now, I am against calling events and activities sports in which the human is a mere rider, driver or manipulator (such as car racing and hunting) but many consider these serious sport. Perception is in the eye of the beholder.

In my eyes dressage looks funny.

gtar100

(4,192 posts)
49. It just goes to show you that republicans ruin everything they touch.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:32 PM
Jul 2012

And it ends up in our laps to clean up their mess. In this case, Mitt's midas touch gives horse riding a bad name. With your post, you're making it clear that it's not the horses, the riding, or the sport that is the problem. It's Mitt that's the problem. Thank you for the reminder.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
76. thank you for getting my point!
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 10:04 PM
Jul 2012

It seems my entire life I wished dressage got some coverage in the Olympics, and more appreciation here in the US. There was never more than about a 5 second snippet, maybe, with snide commentary.

Now it's got coverage. And mittens crapped all over it.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
52. Some democrats ride, some own/shoot guns, some smoke, it used to be a big tent
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:41 PM
Jul 2012

It seems at times though that some want to make it a smaller and smaller tent - and that perhaps those once welcome are no longer.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
59. It still is a big tent. It's way more tolerant of differences than it was fifty years ago.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:02 PM
Jul 2012

You want to shoot? Knock yourself out--and people who don't like it will make fun of you. People who do like it will go "Rah rah" with you.

You want to smoke? Knock yourself out--and people who think it's a dumb habit that will kill you will make fun of you. People who do smoke will bum one off you.

You want to ride? Go ahead. People who don't like it will say so, and people who do like it will cheer you on.

Unless you're Annie RMoney on her taxpayer funded hobby horses, no one is making fun of YOU.

Sheesh. There are more and more hypersensitive whiners in this big tent than anyone can shake a stick at.

Waaaaah--someone doesn't like what I like...I'm gonna cry, now! That's what is stupid, here.

It's beyond stupid actually--it's absurd. I like a lot of weird stuff, but if other people wrinkle their nose or say "That's a dumb thing to be interested in" I say "Fine--no one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to like what I like." I am not so needy or insecure that I can't manage to go my own way every now and again, and if people don't hold my hobbies or interests as dear as I do...so frigging what? Why must everything be a faux Kumbayah exercise? What's with all the stupid scolding around here, lately?

We are not a LOCKSTEP party and we never have been--it's what I like about the Democratic Big Tent.

This rather recent effort to squelch dissenting views and opinions is what makes the big tent stink like everyone cut a big one in unison. The only thing we should be united on--and I see damn little of THAT around here as often as not--is reelecting POTUS and other Democrats to local, state and federal offices. Why can't we all get onboard and marching in the same damn direction on THAT little matter? It's way more important than hurting Annie's little feelings about her stupid taxpayer-funded horse. IMO.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
77. Ya know, I agree
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 10:50 PM
Jul 2012

Why not put aside some differences, realize that WE here are not the bad guys - whether it be x/y/or z - and focus on keeping/getting those in power who will reflect our desires for all of us to have freedoms we all love?

I can't have an abortion, but for those who can I want them to have the freedom to. I don't own a gun, but I respect the rights of my fellow dems to own one. I am not gay and don't have to worry about gay marriage and such. There are a lot of things that don't directly affect me but I stand for.

And it all pretty much boils down to...freedom to choose. Something I have harped on for years - whether it is free to choose what bar to go to (and smoke/not smoke in) to abortion, to gay marriage, to owning a gun, etc I am on the side of people having choices and not having a bunch of old white dudes in suits removing those choices for religious or other reasons.

Freedom is something I am big on, social justice, keeping corporations in check, electing democrats, etc - just seems of late we are fighting more with each other over what freedoms to remove and how we don't like the choices others in the big tent make and the core ideals are getting lost.


Choice - it is something we say we hold dear and believe in - yet so many seem to want to remove it when it comes to an issue they don't care about. That, to me, is not what our party should be about.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
114. And freedom of speech is a biggie on that list, too.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:07 AM
Jul 2012

I am really getting tired of this whole "Don't say this, don't do that" noise I am hearing lately.

"It'll make US look bad!"

"Is that how WEEEEEEE want to be perceived?"

Who are these "us" and "we" so-and-so's? I don't see these "us/we" people along side me when I'm out precinct walking (hobbling) or driving a bunch of old ladies to the polls. I never do, not once, not ever. The only time I see the professional scolder-lecturers is here.

I just think people need to stick to their own knitting, and rather than trying to shut people up by telling them what they are NOT ALLOWED to say, to squelch their opinions, to silence their voice, these gripers need to try to argue their points with persuasive reasoning if it means that much to them--and the first person who uses the "It'll make US look bad" excuse loses. We Democrats are a hodge-podge, and all of "US" will never agree a hundred percent on anything--and that includes planks in the Democratic Party Platform. That doesn't make "US" bad Democrats--it makes us sentient beings.

They might make their case with a persuasive argument, and maybe they won't. But suppressing the freedom of speech, and in particular, the all-important, and quite vital-to-me, freedom to mock Thurston And Lovvie, is complete bullshit, and I'll say it early and often.

AnnieBW

(10,350 posts)
64. I Don't Have Pony Envy, But The RMoneys are obnoxious
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:28 PM
Jul 2012

They paid $77K for a horse, and use it as a tax write-off. Anne Romney claims that she rides for MS therapy, but most people who have MS can't afford a $77K horse. Michelle Obama's father had MS, and he went to work as a public employee for 50 years.

It's not the horse. It's the money.

cilla4progress

(24,585 posts)
66. I moved out west from tony western NJ
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:31 PM
Jul 2012

where Jackie rode, so I could have a horse in my backyard! When I moved here, you could have a horse if you had 1 acre of land!

I learned to ride through basic dressage - a correct, classic, and humane teaching philosophy. I showed some, now mostly trail ride for fun.

Dressage is the basis for all riding (you'll see the more enlightened cowboys doing it - they call it cowboy dressage), and improves my backyard trail horses as well!

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
74. They got $49.00 in tax deductions.
Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:51 PM
Jul 2012

It was explained to them that the income must come from the horse, not other businesses.

And I agree, imo it is a hobby, not a business, for them.

And that is not what this thread is about. It's about people tearing down and mocking a sport and all the people who participate in it, due to hatred of the Romneys.

We hate having the Romneys participate in our sport far more than you do. Believe me. It sucks.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
84. I really appreciate all the wonky expertise (on just about any subject) here
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:24 AM
Jul 2012

I've been educated about a sport that I didn't have a clue about, by people who made the creepiness of selling a drugged horse vivid and specific.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
91. OK, but the Kennedys are rich people
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:46 AM
Jul 2012

Horses cost a lot of money from what I understand. So it's not exactly something that ordinary people can do.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
99. and they are democrats.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:42 AM
Jul 2012

And I'll bet they never tried to use their horses as tax deductions. Although Jackie didn't trot the globe to show (there is no international 'show hunters' competition to my knowledge), she did show at the "A" level, which takes some money.

Horse costs and access to riding depends as much on your location as anything. You can have zero money and ride. You can have lots of money and not ride.

There have been times in my life when I've had access. There have been times in my life when I've had no access. I've been on both sides of the street.

Having no access never hurt until I had access and "caught the virus." Once it's in your blood, you are doomed.

Poor kids in rural areas have access.
Poor kids in the city are less likely to have access...unless they happen to live in Philadelphia where there is a program for poor kids who love horses.

And yes, the wealthy have access to horses. They have access to everything; that doesn't mean we tear down what they have access to. Only the fact that, in their greed, they limit other people's access.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
110. Nobody is really tearing it down
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:41 AM
Jul 2012

Just using it as yet another example of the Rmoney's life of privilege and high class. It is not a bad thing for the Kennedys, because they had a sense of responsibility. The Rmoneys do not.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
133. You can often find older horses for a very reasonable price,
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:52 AM
Jul 2012

sometimes cheaper than what people will spend on a purebred puppy. Heck, I've found ads where the kids had graduated and moved out and the parents no longer wanted a horse, offering it free to a good home.

The upkeep can be a bit pricey at times but if you have an acre or more of land it's not that bad.

I'd like to have one someday, when I can afford a couple of acres. I used to ride with friends and loved it.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,282 posts)
92. If Romney's horse beat the competition at the olympic qualification matches
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:46 AM
Jul 2012

then good luck to them in London. I wish them bad luck in November.

As an olympic sport, I prefer curling. Any sport that can be done with a beer in one hand is a great sport.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
102. Any sport that can be done with a beer in one hand is a great sport.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:56 AM
Jul 2012


I used to split a beer with one of my horses before hitting the trails. She loved it. Does that count?

As I told my vet, "then we have a very mellow ride." First time I ever saw that vet laugh out loud.

KurtNYC

(14,549 posts)
93. So the Romneys are trying to be the Kennedys? Kennedy Envy!
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:53 AM
Jul 2012

Good catch. They love that kind of thing across the aisle.

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
94. It's nice that some 1% sponsor some nobodies.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:00 AM
Jul 2012

If not for their benevolence no one besides 1% would get to play.

You do realize all your posts on this topic do absolutely nothing to dispel the notion this is a sport for the wealthy. You point out you got to ride in the past, you talk of little people getting breaks from the wealthy and then you show Jackie O on horseback.

All showing without a doubt that such horse play is for the wealthy or for those lucky ducks they throw some crumbs to.

But do carry on, it's entertaining to watch you claim it's not all 1% and then promptly write more stuff that shows it is.

Julie

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
106. I learned FEI movements on somebody else's fully trained horse
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:18 AM
Jul 2012

which enabled me to learn to teach never ridden, rescued horses dressage all the way through FEI. That 1%er gave me free education in a skill I wanted to learn. The "select few" you refer to are anybody who showed up and worked hard at their riding. The 1%er didn't decide which specific individual rode; the trainer she entrusted the horses to made that decision, based on what the rider was ready to learn.

And that was back in the days when a middle class woman took a rescued, off the track thoroughbred, trained him up herself into a horse the German's called the best in the world, and took him to the Olympics.

Now, 1%ers give nobody free education; they take it away. And it takes sponsorship from 1%ers to even get your hands on an "Olympic-caliber" horse.

There is no more doing it on your own because now they own everything. The current crop of 1%ers, including the Romney's, wrecked it for everybody else.

Olympic competition is a sport of the 1%. Dressage in and of itself is not. That is all. Sorry it is too fine a point for you to understand. But do carry on in your contempt.

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
107. So you validate my points.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:30 AM
Jul 2012

But I'm just too simple to get it. Got it.

Thanks for implying I'm stupid though. A little tactic you picked up mucking out the stables of the 1% perhaps?

Julie

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
120. I did NOT muck out the stables of the 1%. That is my point.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:21 AM
Jul 2012

When I rode the 1%ers donated horses -- they were *donated.* I paid the teacher the same for the lessons as if I'd had my own horse. The use of the highly trained, Grand Prix horses was free. This was true also for my best friend at the time. The other 2 students we often had lessons with were wealthy and did have their own horses to ride. We paid the same amount of money for our lessons as they did. The 1%er did those things out of passion for dressage and the wish to foster its growth.

But that was then, and this is now. The 1%ers have changed; instead of fostering aspiring young riders and humane horse care and training, the Romneys and their ilk have bought their way into the Olympics and forced everybody else onto the sidelines. There was a time when the lead Olympic dressage team rider was on a rescued, off the track thoroughbred that she trained herself. Those days are long gone, thanks to people like the Romneys. That they were involved in drugging an unsound horse and selling him for $125K only adds to my contempt for them. It highlights how they treat people: "fond" of them as long as they can get something, use them up and then throw them to the wolves. I despise them as much as anybody else here, if only because they crapped on my sport.

My friends and I mucked out the stables and cleaned tack small, working class horse business owners. They were trainers/riders with barns -- often leased barns-- and a small herd of lesson horses.

If you had money you could buy lessons on their horses. If you didn't have money, you could work to ride their horses in lessons and to go trail riding or whatever. Every small barn back then was based, in part, on some students working off part or all of their lessons. Or you could work off some or all of the board for your own horse. Or half-lease one of their lesson horses to ride on your own some days and have lessons on others.

Horses are a huge amount of work to maintain and trainers were run ragged trying to take care of all the horses and teach and find time to ride themselves. So they were always open to the "working student" concept. And for aspiring horsepeople, the best way to learn horse care taking is to do it as a student, under the watchful eye of a pro, so you learn correct care, what is correct feed, what is inappropriate, what can kill your horse, as well as learn how to treat every day injuries.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
125. " Olympic competition is a sport of the 1%. Dressage in and of itself is not."
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:37 AM
Jul 2012

Which part of that statement somehow validates your point that this kind of "horse play" is only for the wealthy?

Really. I want to know.

Pretty much ANY competitor at the Olympics is in the 1% of their sport. Dressage is no different. Micheal Phelps is a 1%er but that doesn't mean anyone who swims is as well.

The point of showing Jackie O was to demonstrate that we've had Dems who ride and nobody mocked them - we embraced them. DUers getting unhinged because Ann Rmoney rides are being hypocritical in the extreme. Many, many DUers ride and none of us are 1%ers. Not even close.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
135. " DUers getting unhinged because Ann Rmoney..."
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:05 AM
Jul 2012

Hyperbolic nonsense.

Unhinged?

What was the economic condition of the Nation when "Jackie O" was FLOTUS? Cripes, get a clue.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
138. Back then, the rich paid more than their fair share of taxes--really!! The tax rate on the wealthy
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:12 AM
Jul 2012

was pretty frigging profound.

And the rich were a lot NICER back then, too!

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
95. After ...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:07 AM
Jul 2012

... perusing this thread, it once again reminds me that even here, there are going always be apologists and sycophants for the 1%er pukes.

It amazes me to think that these types think it's justifiable that those with hundreds of millions of dollars take a tax deduction that is larger than what some whole families LIVE OFF OF, for a fucking hobby horse.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
103. the tried to take a $77K deduction. They were allowed a $49 deduction
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:59 AM
Jul 2012

but I understand your point.

I am sorry that you think that spending hours mucking stalls and cleaning tack in exchange for riding somehow qualifies as apologizing for the 1%.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
108. I'm not defending elitist scum like the Romney's. I'm *condemning* them.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:34 AM
Jul 2012

Dressage in and of itself is not elitist, any more than being a farmer's kid with a pony to ride on is elitist. It is a system of training that facilitates riding, making it more fun and easier for both horse and rider. Top trainers used to be accessible to *anybody* who wanted lessons on *whatever* horse they had to ride. And if they had no horse, a horse was provided to them. As a business, yes, you had to pay the trainer. But the cost was the same whether you brought your own horse or rode one of theirs. When I had no horse, I rode fully trained Grand Prix horses donated by a 1%er at no charge.

Dressage competition at Olympic levels has been made elitist by scum like the Romney's that buy their way in and crank up the prices for everybody in the process.

I'm asking that people here try to differentiate between a system of riding, and *some* of the people that participate.

Horseback riding crosses the aisle. When people attack all dressage, they are attacking democrats as well as republicans.

There have been people on this board (so far mostly avoiding this thread) who have been attacking dressage itself as a way to attack the Romneys. They have called it abuse, cruel, painful to the horse and forceful, as well as others mocking it totally. It is none of those things. And it is wrong of them to spread those lies; especially when there are people on this board who make their living teaching and training dressage riding.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
131. I have no problem with dressage or horse folks
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:43 AM
Jul 2012

In fact I would love to own a couple ponies of my own.

I'm aiming my attacks at the Bain's.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
128. I'm gonna go out on a limb here...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:41 AM
Jul 2012

but I feel pretty safe in saying that I highly doubt Mrs. Bain is mucking stalls or cleaning tack.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
136. not very far out on that limb....
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:08 AM
Jul 2012

I suspect she may, on occasion, pick up a soft brush to run across her horse's back.

I expect her closest relationship to horse pooh is to accidentally step in some. Actually, Mr. Bain seems to be Olympic caliber at stepping in horse pooh. If he were a horse, he'd be rolling in it...

The pertinent question to me would be "who is doing the stall mucking and tack cleaning?"

It was shocking to me, after a several year hiatus due to renewed poverty, to return to riding and find that working students had been replaced by (under)paid help. In some cases, the (under)paid help really didn't care about the horses and were pretty bitter about how the farm owners in question treated them. In other cases, they did care and were wonderful...and burned out within a year or less and got "real jobs." And at one point, I heard a rumor that one local Massachusetts barn had to hang each horse's vitamin supplements on the door because the current staff didn't speak English.

I wonder whether if the bottom level of the farm staff are legal or illegal immigrants from Mexico.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
161. Hahahahaha
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:58 PM
Jul 2012

"Actually, Mr. Bain seems to be Olympic caliber at stepping in horse pooh. If he were a horse, he'd be rolling in it... "

That made me choke on my ice coffee

Yikes- I would hate to see any horse mistreated because they didn't hire appropriate help in order to save money.

I learned to ride at a stable here in MA- on a pony named bigenough who liked pizza and jelly donuts! Good memories

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
97. I rode my great grandpappy's mule once.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:11 AM
Jul 2012

Course that was on his dirt farm up the holler and not a fine estate but sure, we are all the same.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
111. Why would you assume any of us were envious of their lifestyle of expensive prancing
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:46 AM
Jul 2012

animals? Don't project your own envies on us.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
134. for a couple reasons
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:00 AM
Jul 2012

1. I've had a horse /been a rider off and on most of my life. Every time I've had my own horse, I've instantly been targeted by new bff's who "always wanted a horse" mooching rides. I say mooching because they're never around to help lug hot water through hip-deep snow at 5am, nor are they around in the middle of the night to sleep in a sick horse's stall in December, wrapped in a horse blanket and shivering. They always disappear at stall cleaning time. But they loooove horsies so please, please, please can't they go riding on my horsie?

2. This thread was actually aimed at perhaps a half dozen specific individuals who have posted in and started other threads that were very derogatory of (as well as ignorant of) dressage as a discipline. I'm not talking about the "horse prom" or "horse they danced in on" jokes. I'm talking serious, malicious and false claims.

I find it interesting that not one of them has responded to this thread. Not one. I suspect they know who they are.

No, I don't envy the Romneys. I have a lovely young mare with world class gaits (but about 8" too short) in my back yard. She has the athletic ability to do FEI if she wants, as she has demonstrated cavorting about her pasture. And I have my eye on a couple other, equally nice youngsters of the "wrong" breed for the Olympics.

But I do hate the negative impact they have had on a sport I love. I wish Ann had found picked some other sport, or at least a different discipline, to heal her MS and try to use as a tax loophole.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
117. Pony envy? <<<pfffft!>>> Horses were never anything but a pain in the ass
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:09 AM
Jul 2012

for me.

I grew up in the country. I like horses as friends, don't particularly like to ride them, and they are extremely expensive, impractical pets, but, hey, to each their own.

Some little girls dream of owning a horse.

My little sister and I and dreamed of ways to get rid of them.

Mucking stalls, feeding, watering, hauling hay, sheltering, paying vet bills, farrier bills, having to pay someone to care for them them when you go away, spending countless hours chasing and catching them when they bust the fence and get out of the pasture , buying tack, horse trailers, on and on, etc, forever and ever. And then, when they old and lame, you have find some sucker (gentle older horse, free to good home, you haul) to give them to. If you can't find a sucker that will take them off your hands, you have to shoot 'em and bury 'em - no small consideration when you consider that the ornery shitters weigh about 1000 lbs apiece.

Ever tried to move a dead 1000 pound animal without a tractor? Or dig a hole deep and wide enough to bury it? Not. Fun.

All my not 99% friends who have horses practically live in poverty so that they can own their little dream pony, and most hardly ever ride. All their horses do is cost them money, eat, and poop. Sure, you can eat them, but they taste like shit.

Horses are great if you either have a lot of money, or are into masochism.

The only pony I ever really dreamed of owning was a '66 Mustang fastback 2+2 automatic with a little 200 6 cylinder and pony interior.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
139. Oh, for fucks sake
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:13 AM
Jul 2012

"And then, when they old and lame, you have find some sucker (gentle older horse, free to good home, you haul) to give them to. If you can't find a sucker that will take them off your hands, you have to shoot 'em and bury 'em - no small consideration when you consider that the ornery shitters weigh about 1000 lbs apiece."

I'd just love to read a DUer talk about a dog or cat that way.

Really? Just find a sucker to take your old dog or cat when you're sick of them OR just shoot them? Is that what you d to your old pets? I'd really hate to fucking be you.

For fuck's sake!

I don't throw my old horses away. I have one who is 30+ years old and I spend about $150 a month feeding her and another mare. They are my companion animals. I made the commitment to see them through til the end just like any other companion animal.

The hatin' on horses and dressage is just ignorant and the wrong thing to get your knickers in a twist over. But hate on, folks. It should really make horse owners and horse lovers want to be part of THIS team

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
163. Wow. What a nasty, uncalled for post and horrible misdirected personal attack.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:23 AM
Jul 2012

I’m writing this from the dining room table of the ranch house on the small ranch in Northern Arizona where I work. I made my other post from here this morning. There are at least 5 horses buried within a hundred yards of this house. I managed this ranch at one time. I buried two of those horses. They all got old and sick. We had to put them down. That's what we do out here in the rural west. When horses get old and sick, and are in terrible misery, we put them down.

I hope you will do the same for your friend, and that you won't let your old mare just suffer until she dies when that time inevitably comes. That would be cruel.

There are 5 horses in stalls about 75 yards from where I am right now. There is a tack room full of tack, and a barn room full of hay. Three of these horses are old nags we keep for disabled folks to ride, as a calming therapy. This is part of what I do for a living now. There are probably at least 100 horses within a square mile radius of where I sit right now.

I like horses. I don’t much like to ride them. I don't keep them for pets. They are herd animals. From my experience with them, it appears to me that most of them really seriously don’t much like people sitting on them and forcing them to do what they force them to do. Doesn't look like fun to me.

Like I said, I like horses. They are good friends. I hate to see them penned in. If I could, I'd let them all run free. I never had "pony envy", no romantic dreams of owning horses. They are and were a practical reality for me. I actually feel kind of mean every time I cinch a saddle and climb on a horse to ride. Some people say horses like to be ridden.

But the horses tell me that they don't.

Really? Just find a sucker to take your old dog or cat when you're sick of them OR just shoot them? Is that what you d to your old pets? I'd really hate to fucking be you.

For fuck's sake!


That's a really horrible, nasty shitty thing to say to me. I love animals. I don't mistreat animals. My statement, "gentle older horse, free to good home, you haul" was made because of the manynotes I have seen on bulletin boards at general stores and minimarts, and the many ads in local ad papers, that said this exact thing, over the course of my lifetime. People giving their lame, old, nearly dead horses away, because they can't ride them anymore and don't want to pay for their care, to someone who doesn't know anything about horses, and thinks they'll be able to ride the poor old nag.

I've lived almost my entire life in the rural west. I've known some ranchers and ranch hands, a few rodeo riders, and other folks who actually work with horses for a living, and I don't mean slowly riding them around in circles in a ring.

People out here joke about horses all the time. Old timers sometimes call them shitters.

I'm sorry that you totally did not understand where I was coming from. I think we come from very different worlds.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
170. You made the statement
Wed Aug 1, 2012, 09:18 PM
Aug 2012

It disgusted me, and would have been roundly denounced on this forum had you made the same comment about a dog or cat. You know that.

Now you want to explain yourself? Should have done that before hand.

It's not my problem, but yours. People WILL react when you try to be cool daddio.

I call it like I see it, whether it hurts someone's little feelings or not. You should have thought about your words before you posted them.

Old Brazilian saying in English:

"What your mouth say, your ass pay. " To include internet bullshit.







 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
149. careful there. Someone could mistake you for Ann Romney
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:17 PM
Jul 2012

"And then, when they old and lame, you have find some sucker (gentle older horse, free to good home, you haul) to give them to. If you can't find a sucker that will take them off your hands, you have to shoot 'em..."

Except when the horse she professed to be "fond of" could no longer perform to her expectations, her trainer drugged him up and pawned him off on a sucker client for $125K.

If she had been able to get insurance coverage for his specific infirmity, he may well have ended up shipped off to slaughter.

However, I read your post as black humor. At least, I hope so. I certainly wouldn't want to have to hand dig a grave for a 1,000 pound horse. It was hard enough burying my 26 year old boy that I rescued 22+ years ago, with a pro and excavator. Yes, there were down times as well as uptimes. That's true of any relationship. But we stuck it out to the end, which in my mind is all that matters. I promised my boy a home for life and I did it.

On the other hand, if you are serious, you may want to reconsider or find people believing the Romneys are smarter than you are, since they got paid big bucks for the horse they ran into the ground and dumped. Same as with all the businesses they ran into the ground and dumped.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
165. Yes. It was meant as "reality based black humor".
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:55 AM
Jul 2012

I can tell you have had a fair amount of experience with horses.

Yes, we had to hire someone with a backhoe to dig the graves


 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
168. "black humor" can get you into big trouble on the internets
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 09:51 AM
Jul 2012

believe me, thanks to a fair amount of experience, I know!

I had to put my old, very sick gelding down last February. It was one of the hardest, most painful decisions and actions I've ever had to take. He had stood on his burial site for days, waiting, while I found an excavator and coordinated with him and my vet. Each morning he would make his way to the site -- which changed 3 times after consultation -- and he immediately moved to the new sites as they changed. It was a sacred day, for me and I think for him too. Everything that could go wrong didn't. Everything just fell gently into place. The vet assured me he went down easy; I was holding Dahli out of sight. He did slide easily into his grave, and I am so grateful to the excavator for that. I'll never forget my last living sight of him, watching me lead Dahli, my mare, back to the barn, I turned back to tell him I loved him one last time. His aura just glowed with peace, gratitude and love. I rescued him 22+ years ago from neglect and starvation. I promised him a home for life.

"I actually feel kind of mean every time I cinch a saddle and climb on a horse to ride. Some people say horses like to be ridden.

But the horses tell me that they don't."

This is largely what dressage is about. Making it enjoyable for both horse and rider. If horses tell you they don't like being ridden, either they weren't started correctly, aren't being ridden correctly, have some pain somewhere and need tack or something adjusted, or are better suited to different jobs. Or maybe you need to lose a few pounds On the other hand, they might just be miffed cause they know that you prefer cars.

The first horse I started under saddle was an anglo-arab. The first time I sat on her was in an open field with just halter and leadshank, while she grazed. She never once bucked, reared, bolted or panicked. She got it totally from day one; no fear at all. She was a sweet, sweet mare who treated me like her foal, whisping my hair with her lips and licking my back. She was a caretaker, who took careful care of her riders.

My old gelding was harder to start because of his karma. The first time I sat on him should have gone fine. It got off to a great start. He lived at the end of a dead end street adjacent to conservation land. It was early afternoon in spring, so kids were (supposed to be) in school and adults (except me) at work. A small. level paddock, well fenced, next to the barn for feelings of safety. Quiet, peaceful. I got on and off a couple times. Got on and walked around a couple times. One time too many. The 3rd time, with zero warning, 3 motor scooters, hooky-players on board, came roaring out from behind some bushes just across the street. My poor boy panicked, stood up, lost his balance on landing and pecked to his knees with nose to the ground. There was no place for me to go but sliding down his neck. I broke my finger on landing and he, being an arabian, had fear melded into his brain. Arabians never, ever forget. And sadly, that event is pretty much how every new venture started with him. Some unforeseeable, unpreventable and terrifying accident. I lost a lot of time undoing crazy, freak accidents. Only his final journey went off without a hitch.

My current mare has different karma, thank dog. A month ago, she was in a pissy kind of mood. She didn't want to do any of her groundwork, so after about 5 minutes I concluded it just wasn't her day. They have off days too, and if you're sensitive to that it can save a lot of grief. Anyway, I gave up and as I led her back to the barn to untack, I looked her in the eye and said, out loud, "Maybe you'd just rather have a baby." The next day, as I was grooming her, she lifted her tail and started winking.

The messages do come through, loud and clear. They tell us everything we need to know if we shut up long enough to listen, lol.

Dahli doesn't like anything the first time we try it, because she is afraid. So I break everything into tiny increments, to make it smaller and less scary. Once she gets past her fear, she gets "ooh, cool!" Then nonchalant. Then lazy, because she is, at heart, a little lazy but with huge stores of energy. She loves to jump. I started her over a couple bales of hay lying end to end. She was afraid, until I coaxed her close enough to see it was just 2 bales of hay. A mouthful convinced her they wouldn't bite. Small enough to step over, but big enough to make jumping them easier. Soft, so she wouldn't get hurt if she hit them while she figured out the details. Soon she was sailing over them with vigor and joy. Within a couple weeks, she was nonchalant, even with them on their sides so higher. Then lazy, with bales sent flying every which way. So it was time to up the ante. Last night I laid a single board on top, so if she got lazy they'd sting her a bit. We went through the entire routine in a single night. First bug-eyed afraid, because the bales had grown a board. But she sailed over them with lots of room to spare. By the end of the session, the board was flying cause she had reached lazy and the board is light and loose. Next I'll seriously up the ante and add a little crossrail at one-stride for the beginnings of gymnastic jumping. All of this is with just a lunge and halter at this point.

It was pretty much the same with ground driving, which she now seems to enjoy, marching around her pasture with her leading me, yet me guiding her out of sight from behind instead of next to her shoulder where she can see me.

Only once did she stop to grab a bite of grass, which led to her "bridle fear." She'd had no fear of bit or bridle until the night I tried to unbridle her, not realizing she still was clinging to that bit of grass. The feeling of the bit touching her clenched teeth panicked her and she threw her head up, jerked away from me and hurried down the aisle flinging her head side to side until she finally remembered to open her mouth and the bridle went flying. We had numerous practice sessions after that, but she had decided having the bridle removed is just horrible and required her to jerk her head up and fling the bridle off, lol. So finally last week I said "fine. wear the thing." After a couple days of wearing her bridle, she decided maybe it was better to just let me remove it for her the old, normal way. Arabians can get hooked on drama, so I do what I can do avoid it because once they've found some, they have a hard time letting go, lol.

I've laid across the saddle and walked her around, and I've sat in it a couple times and walked her with me sitting in it just once. She was very afraid that once. She walked easily when I was laying across the saddle -- trotted a couple strides the last time (ouch!), but her legs were stiff and she barely moved the one time I asked her to walk while sitting up. I haven't yet thought of any way to break this into a smaller increment, so we've backed off a bit for the moment. Sometimes she just needs time to think about things to put them together...

As you can see, all this is very different than the bronc-busting so many think of as "breaking" a horse. I am going much, much slower and in smaller increments than is typical even for dressage trainers. But I am also very breakable, broke and alone, so can't afford any injuries. And the weather has not been supportive, so it's been on again / off again due to rainy weeks, hot,humid,buggy weeks, etc.

Response to magical thyme (Original post)

 

lonestarnot

(77,097 posts)
126. Every horse or pony I've ever owned I rode bareback and had a place to go in mind when I got on so
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:39 AM
Jul 2012

kiss my ass.

Atman

(31,464 posts)
144. I had a pony. This isn't "envy." It's disgust.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:44 AM
Jul 2012

I had a Shetland pony. Damned thing would always find a way to escape his paddock, and we'd have to go searching the nearby farms to find him. But we never had to check flight manifests to find out whether or not he'd flown to London.

My parents never got to take a $78,000 tax deduction for him.

.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
147. The $77K deduction was denied. $49 was allowed.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:00 PM
Jul 2012

Yes, forty-nine dollars.

And yes, the disgust is understandable and shared, except maybe over checking "flight manifests." If you're horse is on the Olympic team you want to make sure they arrived in the right city, same as if your kid was on a class trip somewhere.

Although, sometimes I look at the expense of the Olympics and feel disgust toward the whole thing. On the one hand, I understand and share the excitement of the young athletes who had their dreams come true. On the other hand, that's a lot of money that could be better spent repairing and upgrading to a sustainable infrastructure or doing other, smarter things.

If you think shetland ponies are bad, try keeping a goat. Not only can they not be contained, once they are loose -- and they will be loose -- they are nothing but Trouble. What they don't eat in your garden, they will trample or pee on. Climb on the deck and poop all over it ever try to get dried raisins from between deck boards?), try to sneak into the house, head into the road and play chicken with oncoming trucks....

Atman

(31,464 posts)
148. They'll have another shot at claiming tax deductions on their 2012 return.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:05 PM
Jul 2012

Yes, I was just posting the "denied" info to a Facebook friend (thanks to Laura PourMeADrink -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021045105). Indeed, they TRIED to claim the loss, but the IRS called bullshit on them. Or horseshit, as it were.

Still, as has been pointed out, the LOSS the Romney's tried to claim on their precious dancing horse was far more than the majority of Americans make in a year.

We live in farm country, and most of the goats seem to be well-behaved. But I'm constantly dodging chickens crossing the road. Seriously. But I've never stopped to ask them why they're doing it.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
151. You keep runnung that meme.
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:22 PM
Jul 2012

Considering that there ins only one years of these scum's tax returns available for scrutiny, you have no fucking idea how much they have taken in deductions. No fucking idea.

Furthermore, I don't ANYONE, and I know hundreds, if not thousands of people who have animals of all types, that weren't part of the food chain, including us, and not a single one has EVER gotten a tax deduction for, or from them. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Tell us all again how you aren't defending the Rmoneys.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
152. I own and operate the exact same dressage (and CT) business as the Rmoneys and Jan Ebeling
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:42 PM
Jul 2012

If your thousands of friends and family are operating as a legitimate sales, training, boarding and breeding operation and they haven't taken a single deduction then they are deliberately deciding against that.

I have no idea why they would do that. Even using a box tax-prep from Office Depot will net you deductions.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
153. b.s. I've written that in all likelihood their so-called biz will end up declared a hobby
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:45 PM
Jul 2012

You only get a tax deduction for animal expenses when they are part of a business...

$49 versus $77K is not a meme; it is a fact. They tried to play the system and this one time they failed. It does not help to repeat lies -- that they got a $77K tax deduction -- when they did not, in fact, get that deduction. Lies are a GOP tactic and a fail. They also are not necessary; the truths about Romney are far more damning.

In all likelihood, in the end they will never get that particular deduction. Their Rafalca "business" will have to be successful, and however much money they have put into the purchase, care, training and competition to get Rafalca to the Olympics, there is a good chance that she still won't sell for enough to get it back. That is one of the brutal truths about the horse business -- it's nearly impossible to make a profit unless you are the one doing the training. Once you are paying somebody else to ride and train, you will lose money when it's all added up.

You're right that I have no idea how much they do successfully claim in deductions. Nor do you, nor do any of us except the very few who'd been permitted to view their tax returns. Which is why they need to release their tax returns. I want to see how many times they've played the system and won.

And I especially want to see the year 2009, when UBS agreed to release the names of 4400 tax evaders and those tax evaders were granted a year's amnesty for coming clean and paying up. I want to see for a fact if Romney was hiding money illegally in Switzerland and granted amnesty versus going to jail.

I've never denied that the Romneys are filthy rich, in the legitimately filthy sense of the word. I've never denied that they have opportunities, tax loopholes and deductions available to them that the majority of us will never see in our lifetimes. I have not in any way, shape or form defended the Romneys.

You are the one accusing me of defending the Romneys.

You show me a full posting, not a quote out of context, where I have ever defended the Romneys.

Response to magical thyme (Original post)

Phentex

(16,330 posts)
162. I'm terrified of horses and Republicans...
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:04 PM
Jul 2012

and plan to stay far away from both.

As for Barbie, mine had the airplane. And yet to this day I have never wanted to own one.

I appreciate your perspective but you can't pin the envy on the rest of us.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
164. lol, nope, never dreamed of having a pony
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:44 AM
Jul 2012

and what strange and bizarre hobbies that waste huge sums of money the wealthy people get themselves into is the last thing I would want to emulate, if somehow I walked into being a gazillionaire. I think I live in a different world than those who think of such things as horses and ponies, namely, the real world.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
166. I know three liberal Democrats who love riding horses.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:01 AM
Jul 2012

One of them even became a horse veterinarian. None of them are 1% ers.

I've never had the inclination myself, but it's not necessarily a pastime for only the wealthy.

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