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Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:01 PM

Man left (wounded) fiance & kids at Aurora theater and drove away. Web is beating him up.

story was on radio this morning. Not judging. Just wondering what people think. Internet is calling him a coward. He foolishly told what he did.

Dad Leaves Baby on Floor During Aurora Theater Shooting and Drives Away

In the panic and chaos of the Aurora, Colorado theater shooting, a man earned instant infamy as he left his wounded fiancée and children in the theater and drove off without them.

It all started when father Jamie Rohrs says they arrived a little late and originally planned to sit where James Eagan Holmes entered. Instead, they opted for a second floor balcony. When the shooting started, Rohrs said he was holding his infant, Ethan, and started running and dodging other panicked theater goers. He originally thought about playing dead by lying on the ground with his baby, but little Ethan was crying and Rohrs told ABC News, "He's crying and they're going to come get me."

Rohrs believed that there was more than one shooter at first, which is quite understandable. Holmes used .233 semiautomatic rifle, two 40 caliber Glocks, and a Remington 870 shotgun in the mass attack. All four guns were purchased legally at Bass Pro Shop Gander Mountain, both national chain sporting goods stores.

Rohrs said he became disoriented after putting his baby down and after running around the theater, couldn't find his child again. Instead of going back and looking for him, the man continued to run outside. He didn't stop there, though. In his highly panicked stated, he hopped in his car and drove off.

Meanwhile, his fiancée Patricia Legarreta had a shrapnel injury from her thigh to her ankle. She was lying on the floor when she saw her baby. She picked him up, grabbed her daughter, Azeria's hand, and ran as fast as she could out of the theater. 4-year-old Azeria had been asleep when the shooting started.


Rohrs apparently felt remorse and a bit of self-loathing when he realized he was alone in the car and Legarreta called him from someone else's phone to find out where he was. He turned back, reuniting with his family before all were taken to the hospital and later released.

http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981486647

245 replies, 56540 views

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Reply Man left (wounded) fiance & kids at Aurora theater and drove away. Web is beating him up. (Original post)
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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:04 PM

1. That article doesn't even mention a young guy who was wounded trying to help this woman

and her two children out of the theater.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:05 PM

3. yeah, but other articles do.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:10 PM

9. link to the story of the kid who saved this family

http://www.examiner.com/article/colorado-shooting-teen-risks-his-own-life-for-family-who-was-left-behind



Jarell Brooks, 19, is lucky to be alive. He was in theater 9 on July 20, 2012 when James Holmes opened fire during the premier of Dark Night Rises. When Holmes started shooting, everyone scrambled to the exits, including Brooks, Patricia Legarreta and Jamie Rohrs.

Legarreta was in the theater with Rohrs, her now fiance, her four year old and four month old. When the shooting started Rohrs, left the theater, leaving Legarreta to fend for herself and two children. As Brooks was trying get out of the theater he saw her struggling to get out with both children.

In an interview with ABC News Brooks said, "At the end of the aisle, I ran into a woman. She yelled, 'My kids!' and I saw she had two young kids with her. I made sure they got in the aisle and pushed behind her to make sure she got out of there."

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:05 PM

2. Not judging him, since everyone has a different reaction in the face of danger

...but I wouldn't have been able to leave without my loved ones. Just not wired that way...

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:55 AM

120. I've heard it's situations like this when you find out what you're made of. He was a coward.

That is apparently who he is, at the core. If the account is true.

He may not have been able to help his reaction. He is who he is. But who he is, is a coward, IMO.



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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #120)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:24 AM

129. Yes, and you're SUCH a peach.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #129)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:27 AM

132. Read the definition of "coward." A little education goes a long way.

If anyone, even myself, reacts that way to danger....that is what "coward" means. To run for the hills to save yourself, and put an innocent, vulnerable baby on the floor to die, and leave your gf and her child there to die...that is what it means to be a coward.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #132)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:39 PM

165. He was in a blind panic. Could you relate an instance when you were in a similar situation?

How did you react?

Because I've arrived late to a stadium after it collapsed, people lying everywhere, bleeding and broken. EMS running around like crazy trying to do triage. I jumped right in and started grabbing the mildly wounded who were walking around and telling them to sit down and stay until somebody could look at them.

After about 10 minutes I realized I had arrived at an emergency drill. All the wounded and screaming were there for extra credit in class.

Realizing there were no wounded or dying, I went off by my self and got hysterical.

Another time my mother, who was in the midst of dying of cancer had had a stroke, I dutifully got her dressed and took her to her doctor instead of calling an ambulance because I was on my way into town to go to yoga anyway.

The Doctor told me they were going to admit her to the hospital and run some tests. I got up to leave to go to yoga. It was like I was on automatic pilot. I later realized I was in shock and had dissociated. Luckily before I left the Doctor explained that I was going to have to take her to the emergency room to have her admitted, so I didn't end up leaving her there alone. But otherwise I probably would have. Not because I didn't care, but because at that point it's like my brain had it's own agenda which was: if you keep things as normal as possible, then there is nothing really wrong.

Now, if you had only seen me in one or the other of those situations with no other context, you would decide I was either a selfless hero or a stone-cold heartless bitch.

I'll give the guy a break. He was panicked. Until you've been exactly in his shoes, you really don't have a right to judge him.

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #165)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:28 PM

182. I agree with you, Talking Dog.

I've had the dis-association thing happen to me, too. It's almost like you go outside yourself.

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #165)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:26 AM

242. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - Well put and definitely

 

needed saying.

Adrenaline surges cause 'fight or flight' response and weird shit can happen that has nothing to do with the individual's underlying character or lack thereof.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #132)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:14 PM

195. You know, I wish you are NEVER in any kind of danger

It will be interesting to see.

I have been in a few emergencies, I credit TRAINING, not heroics, reacting "properly" in each of them.

A few even involved fire arms...

But until you are there, you really do NOT KNOW how you will react, and I will never call somebody a coward.

Now just in case you are, and you react in an "inappropriate fashion" can I call you a coward?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:07 PM

4. I was with this guy up until the point he put his infant down and ran out of the theater.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:07 PM

5. Actually, I think he threw the baby aside...from what I heard.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:10 PM

8. Yikes...I understand panic, but yikes.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:23 PM

78. Actually the worst part of this story is that he proposed to her

after he ran and left her and their kids and she said yes.

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Response to malaise (Reply #78)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:04 AM

123. That says a lot about the dynamics

Of their relationship...she was over emotional. I bet he one one of those that wouldn't get married even though they had a kid and after what he did, he proposed out of guilt....

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:09 PM

6. Pathetic.

What a wuss.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:54 PM

69. Apparently, he wasn't a "wuss."

The "wuss," a derivative of "pussy" and "woman," was his fiancee who stayed with their children and covered them.

What he was... is... is a COWARD.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #69)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:57 PM

71. I stand corrected.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #69)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:46 PM

186. part pussy part wimp

at least according to my recolection of fast times at ridgmont high.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #186)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:24 PM

217. "Wimp" is "imp" with the "woo."

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #186)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 11:09 AM

227. In the face of this kind of male cowardice,

it's ironic, not to mention offensive, that "pussy" still equates with "coward"

especially in light of the many instances of female heroism under fire.

If we must stick with sexual expressions, maybe "limp dick" would be

more appropriate.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #227)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:32 PM

228. then limp dick it is nt

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:09 PM

7. Fear is powerful. No one can predict "what they would do"

 

He will have to live with it.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:34 PM

43. wise words, dave

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:58 AM

96. No one can predict whether or not they would prove to be a coward.

Turns out he did. I mean, if the word doesn't apply here, it has no meaning at all.

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Response to Marr (Reply #96)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:25 AM

98. If that makes you feel better, so be it.

 

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Response to Marr (Reply #96)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:15 AM

243. The man is a scumbag to the nth degree...

 

How can you leave an infant and your pregnant GF there to die? It doesnt matter if you crap your pants but protect them...

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:10 PM

10. He panicked.

It wasn't calculated. A person doesn't know how they will react in such a situation, until they're in one. We all hope we'd be heroic, but can we be sure? Since he later felt remorse and returned, I don't think he should be flogged over it, especially by strangers.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:12 PM

12. He drove off. Apparently, she had to call him on the phone before he returned.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:16 PM

19. the problem is his driving away and how he came back only when she called him to

it's one thing to escape from danger, but the rest of it is where he comes off so badly .

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:09 PM

49. he left his babies to die! sorry, he gets no slack from me. his fiance should dump him.

he sure was quick to get on tv. theirs was the first interview i saw the next morning and he NEVER said he ran out. major character flaw.

ellen fl

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Response to ellenfl (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:27 PM

53. Im sure shes giving him the treatment.

Its between the two of them, theres really no need for strangers to push their way into the picture.

Keep in mind, self-preservation is a basic human instinct... cowardice/flight is the normal. It takes a great deal of training and/or self control to overcome. Some people rise to the occasion, some don't. Yes, he should have stayed but ran. But IMO the real story is the 19yo who was fleeing, and stopped to help.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #53)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:32 PM

55. sorry, i have to disagree. they're HIS KIDS. this says so much about his character . . .

and none of it is good.

ellen fl

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Response to ellenfl (Reply #55)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 06:58 AM

110. The way I read this only the infant was his

That does not in anyway excuse abandoning a 4-year old

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Response to left is right (Reply #110)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:27 AM

133. Since he was holding his infant, if he just run from the theater with the infant,

I think it would be much more understandable. But the infant was left behind when he run from the theater.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #133)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:20 PM

196. this is what got me

that he dumped his own baby to save his own skin. If he'd kept his baby and run, I could understand it. But he dumped the crying baby.

Not good spouse or parent material, imo.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #53)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:45 PM

62. Cowardice is not the norm...

 

... but only one of the options available.

Don't even see how this guy looks at himself in the mirror...

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Response to Mike_Valentine (Reply #62)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:26 PM

80. In his case the flight instinct was stronger.

Not everybody lives up to the heroic ideals of internet posters. In war, its sometimes found a soldier who has fired no rounds, they huddled down in their fox hole the entire battle. The Army tries to weed those out in training, but until real bullets start flying you just don't know.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #80)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:46 AM

93. I don't think military career would be a good fit for this guy.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #93)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:53 AM

95. Definately not. Nt

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Response to LisaL (Reply #93)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:37 AM

139. I'm thinking Neocon national security adviser to Mitt might work for him.

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Response to CanonRay (Reply #139)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:32 PM

158. I'm thinking GOP chickenhawk.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #80)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 07:42 AM

113. I agree...

 

My problem arose when you stated that it was the norm.

Dunno about percentages but there is definitely a split in fight/flight. Dude doesn't even have to fight and tackle the guy but protection of women and children is pretty high on my personal priority list and thus I judge him.

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Response to Mike_Valentine (Reply #113)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:30 PM

157. Yes, perhaps norm was a poor choice of word.

But still, self-preservation is a base animal instinct that kicks in when the brain is overwhelmed and shuts down. This is why the military does such extensive training... to weed out those with a low threshhold, and to prepare the remainder to keep their wits and do their duty when the shit hits the fan.
If the guy has any character, he'll do a lot of self-reflection, and do a better job next crisis. If not, he'll sit behind a keyboard in anonimity and judge others to a higher standard than he displayed.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #53)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:37 PM

159. you raise

an interesting point. self preservation is a deep biological instinct. but then so is protecting one's offspring
.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #159)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:59 PM

160. Yes, its a natural instinct for mothers.

More of a learned response for fathers. 9 months of gestation gives mothers a strong bond with the child. Its the husband/wife relationship that causes the the bond to develop and grow in the father.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #160)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:06 PM

162. but the driving force

in all humans (and all living things) is to pass along your DNA. Seems like it would be a.natural instinct to protect the baby as it was a package of the dad's DNA. But I guess fleeing could be seen as living to procreate another day.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:06 PM

74. I think even the worst of parents would

throw themselves in the line of fire to protect their kids. That guy is a loser. Point blank period!

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Response to fried eggs (Reply #74)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:18 PM

77. Easy to say when you're not in that position.

People who are panicking aren't thinking clearly or logically.

Do you know why lifeguards have the little float? They are expert swimmers. But they use the float to extend to the drowinng person so they can stay out of arms reach. A drowning person is in a state of panic and will attempt to climb on anything in reach. If they climb on the lifeguard, they push them under and drown their rescuer.

The guy probably was never tested in his life. His first big test, he blew it. The memory will be with him forever... isn't that punishment enough?

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #77)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:38 AM

92. I don't think anyone here suggested that he should be somehow punished.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #92)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:00 AM

97. Well, the OP said he was getting a beating on the web,

and some posters in this thread have been harsh. All Im saying is the guy probably has never been in a similar situation before. When all of a sudden, hes facing the biggest test of his life, for which he wasn't prepared, and failed. Theres no need for us to pile on.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #77)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:01 AM

121. He found out just who he is at his core. He found out that he is a coward.

He may not have been able to help his reaction. It was a gut reaction. Self-preservation. At the cost of a baby and fiancee he supposedly loves. That's who he is, like it or not. When push comes to shove, his reaction is to save himself, above all other things. He was a coward.

If the fiancee marries him, at least she knows what she'll be getting. If there's a house fire, or financial trouble, or anything urgent where his survival instincts kick in, at least she knows what his reaction will be.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #121)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:01 PM

161. My own feelings echo yours.

The lady in question now has full disclosure about his ability to handle emergencies.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #10)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:38 AM

99. Yeah, and I'm sure his child, when old enough

to be told what happened, will have the same "understanding." "Gee, thanks, dad!" Panic is one thing, ABANDONING YOUR CHILD when some lunatic is firing live rounds is a whole new level of cowardice.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #99)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:50 AM

106. Did you read 1984?

The protagonist ratted out his lover when he was thrown in a cage of rats, because of uncontrollable fear.

Yes, the guy didn't measure up when confronted with a horrible tragedy unfolding around him... a tragedy for which he was unprepared and never occured to him he might face. I have faced emergencies of a lesser nature and kept my wits about me. I think I would also in a situtuation like the shooting, but Im not going to sit behind a keyboard and call him a coward. Hes got to live with his actions for the rest of his life, no need for us to pile on.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:11 PM

11. Video clip of dude running away

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:15 PM

18. Yeah, it was a Costanza thing to do...BUT, not all of us rise to the occasion

when the moment calls for it. I am sure he is suffering some shame and guilt, if he's at all normal.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:17 PM

20. there was this same video on youtube with subject "jamie rohrs" exclusive footage

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:17 PM

21. That's hilarious.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:13 PM

13. not sure what I would do under the circumstances

but pretty damn sure not that

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:13 PM

14. I'M think it should read ex-fiance.

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Response to sarcasmo (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:19 PM

23. he asked her to marry him after all of this happened at the hospital

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:13 PM

15. That much stress and fear, it's easy to do stupid shit

It seems like cowardice, but I can also see in the panic, fear and chaos how easy it would be to just lose track of one's train of thoughts. I've never been in a terrifying situation like that, but I've been under prolonged extreme stress and have done unbelievably stupid (and dangerous) things, like leave an oven on for days or my keys in the lock outside the door overnight without realizing it - things (and risks) I'd never, ever normally do.

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Response to REP (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:18 PM

22. Yeah...I was once so preoccupied that I pulled into a supermarket parking lot

to do my grocery shopping, but left the keys in the ignition, car running, doors not locked. I basically forgot to shut off the car. I am lucky to have put it in park, really.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:32 PM

40. It's kind of terrifying to realize what you've done, too (at least for me it is)

I just don't do things like leave the keys in the ignition of my unlocked car or the keys in the front door lock over night of any other of the bizarre things I was doing; that's not normal for me, and having no memory of having done them or the events around them was as bad the thing itself.

So while I very much hope I wouldn't leave a loved one in a situation like that, I have an inkling how it may have happened.

Of course, it's possible he's a douche, but maybe not.

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Response to REP (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:11 PM

50. HE LEFT HIS KIDS! eom

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Response to REP (Reply #15)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:46 AM

116. But he put his baby down and left him. How could anyone do that "stupid shit"?

I could see him panicking and running out with that baby and forgetting the rest of the family. But how could he abandon the baby in his arms?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #116)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:36 AM

138. And it's his son.

People expect a person to protect their own child.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #116)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 02:12 AM

223. I hope neither one of us are in that sort of situation to find out first-hand exactly what we'd do

I know what I hope I'd do. May I never have to test it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:14 PM

16. the GUy is a Loser, not because he ran out but because he even drove away

but i wish they would focus more on the 19 year old who helped the mother and kids rather than this idiot. of course it doens't help that this guy seems like a media whore and the other guy doesn't see himself as a hero .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #16)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:02 AM

148. It's interesting

Guy who ran away - 'I'm such a hero. Blah blah blah. Look at me on the news.' (Then it comes out what he actually did)

Guy who ran and protected kids that weren't even his - 'Leave me alone. I'm not a hero. Anyone would have done what I did.'

It reminds me of that movie where, I think there was a plane crash, and the character who acted like a coward took credit for saving a bunch of people on the plane, while the real hero just stayed out of the limelight and never wanted to correct the story. I forget what it's called.

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Response to Dash87 (Reply #148)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:47 PM

230. Says a lot about human nature, that.

The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. - Yeats

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:15 PM

17. None of us knows how we, personally, would react...

...to that kind of a situation. We all hope we'd be heroes, and we hope we would not act in a way that appears cowardly. But we can't know how we would really react until the situation arises.

It can be just a purely physiological reaction. Who knows, maybe a bullet whizzed by so close that it just triggered a flight reaction that he was not even consciously aware of.

In any case, he was a victim, not a perpetrator. I wish people would not pile on like they appear to be doing. I'm sure he already has enough survivor's guilt. Or maybe not -- who knows. But he does not appear to be a bad guy. So maybe he's a coward. For most of us, our acts that we may not be proud of are known only to us or just a few other people. For him, now everyone knows what he did and it appears everyone feels free to weigh in.

Geez, just leave him alone.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:20 PM

25. it's not him leaving the danger zone, but him driving home and how she had to call him

for him to come pick them up.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #25)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:16 AM

86. Yes it was not a shining moment...

...that's for sure. As I said in another reply, yes he acted badly but to me it's forgiveable given the sudden and traumatic nature of the incident.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #86)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:53 PM

190. He could have been in shock. n/t

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Response to kurtzapril4 (Reply #190)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:14 PM

213. Yes, that's very possible...

...and it's one reason I don't think we can judge him based on this one incident.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #25)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:32 AM

137. Once he was out cops were there

They caught the guy right away...he could have just hidden until she came out...his instinct was to help himself...and I think she said yes to proposal because he was fighting getting married until this happened and did it out of guilt...

She will regret and leave him within a year or two...

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Response to JI7 (Reply #25)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:21 PM

172. The worst part, IMHO, was putting his baby boy on the floor and abandoning him

to no one's care at all. That to me is unimaginable.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:21 PM

26. Since he is the one who gave interviews and told this story, why exactly should he be left alone?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #26)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:12 AM

85. True, he's out there giving interviews...

...and by doing so he leaves himself open to people's opinions. I did not mean to imply people don't have the right to state their opinion of his actions. My opinion is that the situation was so extreme and so sudden and scary, that a person can be forgiven for reacting badly. I do agree that he reacted badly.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:24 PM

30. It's his KID

As a parent, your #1 instinct is to protect your child, not to toss them aside. When a parent accidentally leaves their kid in a hot car to die, DU is all over them for being horrible parents, but when a parent throws their child aside in a hail of bullets, we need to leave him alone? wtf?

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #30)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:05 AM

84. Yes it's his kid...

...and yes one would hope that a parent would instinctively protect their child in such a situation. But we don't really know what we would do until it happens. One reason we admire heroes, is they are atypical. Most of us aren't heroes. Most of us think we aren't cowards, either, but we are rarely put to the test in a situation like this.

Anyway: I'm not telling anyone else what to do or what to say, just chiming in. My feelings about him when I saw an interview was, wow, he came right out and admitted he behaved like a coward. It was surprising. Most people would never admit that on camera. So he's a coward, but he's an honest one. Other than that, I don't want to judge him, that's all. I'm glad they all got out of it okay.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #84)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:24 PM

237. I really don't think that prtecting one's child is atypical.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #17)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:59 AM

101. Yeah, well if I reacted the way he did

I would never be able to forgive myself. And quite honestly I would deserve whatever harsh things people would have to say about me.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #101)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:44 AM

141. He seemed surprisingly unconcerned about it...

...in the interview I saw, which may be one reason people are reacting so negatively to him.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #17)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:48 AM

117. He wouldn't have had to be heroic to keep holding the baby he was holding

while he ran out the door.

He was anti-heroic when he put the baby down and just left him.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #117)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:43 AM

140. Yes, that is very true...

...look, I'm not defending the guy, just saying that it was an extreme circumstance and happened in an instant. He was tested and found wanting, but it doesn't make me hate the guy. That's all I'm saying.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #17)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:05 AM

124. Yes, it was a gut reaction. His survival instincts kicked in. Now he knows: he's a coward at hiscore

When in danger, his reaction is to save himself, above all else, above all others, whether they be babies, a woman he loves, the more vulnerable, etc. That is the definition of cowardice.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #124)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:47 AM

143. Again, I am not saying he did not act in a cowardly fashion...

...I just don't see any reason to hate him for it. This was a sudden and extreme occurrence and once he had fled, there wasn't much else useful he could do. So while I don't admire him for it, neither do I feel any need to condemn him. Obviously others feel differently, and have every right to say so.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #124)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:57 PM

233. this is what happens when you have a culture of emasculation

 

bravery in combat is a traditionally masculine trait.

although there have been ancient tribes of warrior women, the project of war has traditionally been the stomping ground of men.

when you denigrate manhood and masculine traits, you get a generation of eunuchs who can't be relied upon to wipe their own ass let alone shoot down Nazis over Dresden.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #17)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:54 PM

232. i do - but i have situational awareness and extensive urban combat training.

 

i know everything that is going on wherever i might be.

i can detect changes in barometric pressure, wind speed, and other environmental factors innately.

where they fucked up? don't go in large crowds of people.

stay away from people, treat everyone as a potential threat, and maintain hypervigilance.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #232)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 01:28 PM

234. is it emasculation or is it self absorption?

It sounds like to me "every man for himself." Also, altruism, bravery can be found in both men and women. Putting ones' life on the line has no gender. As can be seen in some stories about WWII and people, like the celts, where both men and women fought side by side.

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Response to newspeak (Reply #234)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 01:33 PM

235. i already conceded your point

 

i just made the claim, GENERALLY SPEAKING, that war is traditionally a male pursuit.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:19 PM

24. Tempted to say something, but I also haven't been shot at before. (nt)

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:21 PM

27. Coward!!!!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:21 PM

28. If its fair for me to say that some people were brave then I think I can say he was cowardly.


Sure, no one really knows how they will react until they are in the situation, but as a father he shirked a basic duty to the child out of fear.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #28)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:26 PM

31. We are all different

Some men will put their lives on the line for stranger, which did happen there, and others will abandon their own families to save themselves.

Until a person has been in a life or death situation, you simply don't know what you, or others, will do.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #31)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:32 AM

90. Well we know what he did, though.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:23 PM

29. Is this the guy who proposed to his fiancé after they went to the hospital?

If so.....I saw them do interviews but never heard th e story about him leaving...."if it's the same guy I am thinking of.

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Response to Gin (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:28 PM

33. yes, it's that one

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Response to JI7 (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:31 PM

39. Geez....he was crying and sobbing.....

Now it may have been from shame........

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Response to Gin (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:30 PM

38. yes. he ran from theater. Another guy saved his family. He returned and proposed.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:27 PM

32. Of course he left. It's what the Republican Party taught him.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:28 PM

34. Well, looks like that relationship is finished. nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:29 PM

36. Last I hears she plans to marry him, since she accepted his proposal.

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Response to valerief (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:29 PM

37. no. They are now engaged.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:29 PM

35. Two reactions: I have pity for him personally, but I like the public condemnation...


because there needs to be social pressure *not* to do what this guy did.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:33 PM

56. There was plenty of pressure in days past in one's own community. We don't need THIS.

 

The Internet never forgets. This guy will be meta-sentenced for life over this. There's no such thing now as paying your debt to society, making restitution and moving on.

You don't even move on from being caught on youtube picking your nose.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=picking%20nose%20caught%20youtube&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=f4f54da109365c4e&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=957&bih=704

You get caught doing the slightest wrong thing and the Intarweb goes on a crusade to find your identity and people start bombarding you with nasty phone calls.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #56)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:48 PM

65. You can pick a pResident,

and you can pick your nose, but only the pResident can pick his nose.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #35)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 07:56 AM

114. Great point...

 

Honestly there often isn't enough social pressure (a.k.a. shame) to induce behavioral change nowadays.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:33 PM

41. Absurd. There are no "cowards" in a firefight.

There are only people who react differently, whether from training or their own original wiring.

It takes a lot of work to convince people it's the right idea to run towards gunfire. Running away from it is actually a pretty normal, even rational response, at a basic level.

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Response to Robb (Reply #41)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:34 PM

42. Is running away while leaving an infant behind normal?

I noticed the girlfriend managed to save both kids with the help of a stranger.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:43 PM

45. Depends on how romantic your view on humanity is.

The mother deserves more praise than she's getting, I'd say.

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Response to Robb (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:45 PM

46. I think she is not getting more praise because people expect that a parent will try to save

his or her child. That behavior is viewed as normal.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #46)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:47 PM

47. People do expect that, I agree.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #42)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:02 AM

83. As a guy with attention deficit

. . . I can see this happening in a panic. I can see getting disorganized forgetting where you put the baby, and then having a mental collapse due to fear and confusion, and impulsively leaving the theater. Now medicated, I can't see myself having a reaction that bad, but I can always disappoint myself. Maybe he had something else going on.

Even if she accepted his proposal, though, I think their relationship is through. It just hasn't sunk in with her, yet. Whether she forgives or not, it's too big of a black mark to forget.

I don't judge him, though. You can't expect an untrained person to do the right thing in an emergency, and so many things can go wrong with judgment in a situation that bad. Some people will look far better than others, but run the scenario again, and someone else would flake out as bad, perhaps even one of the heroes.

If he were trained for battle or a professional rescuer, yes, I'd call him a coward. As it is, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time with a responsibility he wasn't ready for.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #42)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:06 AM

125. A coward puts his baby on the floor to die so he can save himself.

Whether he thought it out, or whether it was gut reaction, it's the same thing. He is a coward.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #125)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:25 AM

131. Would you like us all to say what we think of YOU now?



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Response to Occulus (Reply #131)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:30 AM

134. Coward: a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.

Facts are pesky things. They don't go away because you disagree with them. His actions were cowardly, by definition.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #134)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:55 PM

180. Coward is not a presentation of facts.


It expresses your reaction to him. If all I knew about him were the theater, a gunman, and the word "coward," I couldn't come up with a picture of what he did, except it had something to do with running away. So, don't say there's anything factual about it.

I hope you never have a vulnerable moment in your life. Somehow, I think if you did, you'd find softer words to describe "the facts."

We don't know if his thought process were "I'm going to leave this baby here to die" or, "what? where? a gunshot! Must hide the kid! Must runaway! Hide the kid and runaway . . . A gunshot! Runaway with . . . doh!" You could describe either one as cowardly, however, if you do, it only underscores my point "coward" does not describe facts.

Since, I presume his profession isn't warrior or emergency rescuer, the word "coward" shouldn't even apply. BTW, I wouldn't trust him under stress without training, and perhaps without Attention Deficit meds. You also can't read affection for his girlfriend and kids in anything he did; she'll have his other behaviors to judge from, too.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:41 PM

44. I understand that no one really knows exactly what they'd do...

...in a situation like this, but it does have a lot to do with one's basic character. If you are prone to helping others on a daily basis, or have a sense of honor and commitment towards others, then it is likely you would stay and help someone. I think it is clearly apparent that this guy went well above and beyond reacting to the fear instinct. Assholes don't automatically turn into superheros, and honorable human beings don't automatically turn into cowards in a split second.

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Response to liberalmuse (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:51 PM

48. i thought him not mentioning the guy who did help save his girlfriend and kids

said a lot about him also.

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Response to liberalmuse (Reply #44)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:21 PM

197. When I lived in Hollywood in the late '70's

I was walking along on the Boulevard one evening with a friend, chatting and minding our own businesses. A car full of young men pulls up near us, starts swearing and throwing bottles, get out and start approaching us. One of the bottles rolled over to my feet. My mind then went blank. Apparently, I grabbed the bottle, busted it on the curb, and advanced towards the guys with the broken end of the bottle. The guys got back in their car and drove away. I "woke up" with a busted bottle in my hand, bleeding.

Now, according to your theory, I'm a super-hero. Let me tell you, *I* had nothing to do with how I reacted. Absolutely nothing.

This guy is a coward like I am Wonder Woman. I fucking run away from spiders.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:23 PM

51. When I was a kid, my mom left us swimming with a shark.

We were in the ocean and a shark was spotted. My mom dropped everything and took off.

You can't always tell the ancient lizard part of your brain what to do.

Fight or flight response took millions of years to evolve. It ain't going nowhere soon.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #51)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:29 PM

54. Let's talk about the Internets-that-never-forget, can we?

 

First of all... I can't find it in my heart to make excuses for this guy, or your mother unfortunately, but the problem here is once you make a mistake in life, and the Internet catches you, it never forgets. Ever.

It's like a fucking death sentence.

It used to be that you made a mistake, you took your lumps, you paid your meta-debt to society, lesson learned, move on. Not anymore. This man will be branded for life. Regret will be irrelevant.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #54)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:41 PM

58. If you want to keep your mistakes private, it might help if you don't give interviews describing

what it is you did.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #58)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:43 PM

60. I believe he was caught on video.

 

At that point it doesn't matter if you field an interview or not. "They" are coming after you regardless.

It might have been better to have the interview and try to clear up the air... the latter being a huge and predictable (even inevitable) failure on his part.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #60)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:50 PM

66. What video?

He gave a number of interviews, I know nothing about him being caught on any video.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #54)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:47 PM

64. I am 100% sure that I would not leave my kids in an ocean if a shark was spotted.

I am also 100% sure that if you asked my mother before it happened that she would have said the same thing.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #64)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:46 PM

187. The fact that other people might have reacted the same way doesn't make it NOT cowardly.

That's what some of the posters don't seem to get.

Your mother acted cowardly, by definition. You maybe understand her actions, forgive her for them. And maybe other mothers would have reacted the same way. But none of that changes the fact that if you fail to behave courageously in the face of danger, that is by definition cowardly.

Of course, there may be a difference between your mother's behavior and this guy's. He actually was holding the baby, and he put the baby down to be either shot or stomped on by others in the theater (because the baby was crying, which he feared would draw the shooter's attention to himself), with no regard for the baby or anyone but himself. He had the power to save the baby. It's possible your mother was not in a position to save you or do much about the situation, except to get out of it and yell for you to do the same. That is a big difference, if that was the case.

But glad the shark didn't eat you.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:26 PM

52. I can't judge him.

I can't blame him for being ill-prepared for such an event.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:37 PM

57. There is only ONE villain in this story (and it's not this guy)

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:41 PM

59. Obviously he was in shock

I've seen people in shock do a lot of strange, out of character things in my life. Cut the guy some slack.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:44 PM

61. Not going to judge him, not until I am in his shoes. People are wired differently.

Obviously the guy who did stay and helped the mother get out, did the right thing and is a hero for risking his own life to save the lives of others.

But no one knows how they would react until they are in the same situation.

I have often asked myself that question 'what would I have done had I been in Germany, eg, when the Nazis came knocking on the door looking for a neighbor I was hiding and threatened me and my family with death if I did not cooperate'. I'd like to think I would tell them to go to hell, but who knows? A lot more people than we hear about, failed that test, mostly because people are human and not everyone is a hero. Humans are complex.

I know this though, I do not envy him, as he has to live with what he did.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:46 PM

63. When I've been in this guy's shoes, I will feel qualified to judge him

But I haven't, and I hope I never do. No one ever truly knows how they will react to something like this until it happens to them. Fear and panic are powerful things.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:50 PM

67. And sometimes, a person whose arm is blown off will pick it up and attempt to stick it back on.

The actions of a person in a state of shock are not something to mock.

PB

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:51 PM

68. I didn't realize DU had so many heroes... n/t

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #68)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:13 AM

102. I'm conflicted over whether this guy deserves the scorn he's getting.

 

It's not right to abandon your kids. It's just not right.

But as many people here have aptly said, you can't tell what you'll do in a situation like that.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #68)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:26 AM

105. Or so many "perfect" parents.

Not to mention the idea that all people become perfect parents the moment they have a child.

What's truly sad is seeing just how much work we still have in accepting the concept of forgiveness.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:56 PM

70. Nobody knows how they'll react to when the shit hits the fan till it actually does.

I've seen it many times when I was in the Navy and being a member of a volunteer fire department as to how folks react differently to a crisis situation.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #70)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 10:59 PM

72. But this guy now does!

So does his fiancee. She managed to save both kids with the help of a stranger.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:25 PM

79. Society expects the man to sacrifice himself in order to defend others.

And yes, he does now know how he'll react in such a situation and he's going to live with that for the rest of his life. I imagine some won't let him forget it either.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #79)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:36 PM

82. Three men reportedly did just that during the massacre.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #79)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:50 AM

94. Society expects Parents to Sacrifice for children, he threw his baby aside

and ran out. it wasn't that he didn't shield the girlfriend. it was more about the kids. especially the one he was holding.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #79)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:15 AM

103. Yup, everyone's quick to judge.

 

How fortunate most of us are that we'll never have our sins aired out in front of the world.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #103)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:32 AM

136. Again, if you don't want your issues to be aired in front of the world, don't go on TV

to give interviews about it.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #136)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:22 PM

198. You seem to be really adamant about this.

 

Did this situation somehow affect you?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #198)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 05:03 PM

202. When somebody tries to make it personal, I assume it's because they can't argue any other way.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #202)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 08:41 PM

210. It looks like you're the one making it personal.

 

It is likely that what he did was going to go public anyway. Stuff like that has a way of getting out.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #70)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:33 PM

81. Yep. Easy to be heroic sitting behind a keyboard.

Im guessing that 10 or 15% of these keyboard warriors would behave the same when facing live bullets. Its why the military trains, fer chrissake... so you keep your wits about you in an intensely stressful situation.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:03 PM

73. That guy deserves the Congressional Medal of Dishonor (nt)

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:09 PM

75. What a cowardly thing to do.

 

He deserves the backlash. His fiancee should've left him. If he's not willing to die for her, he doesn't deserve her.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:13 PM

76. Count down to "former" fiancee... 5,4,3,2,1

Ya just never know how you'll react....

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Response to jaysunb (Reply #76)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:20 AM

87. Leave your kid? Yeah former if she has any sense.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:22 AM

88. Well flight or fight def kicked in for him.. I can't judge

Him though. Yes, looking back his behavior was bad, but it was dark, chaotic, bullets flying, and people screaming...really at that point it's all instinct kicking in, no thought. Self preservation is a powerful instinct.

Some people show amazing courage and bravery, some people freeze, and some run. I doubt he was thinking anything but flee.

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Response to nadine_mn (Reply #88)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:28 AM

89. More powerful in some than others.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:33 AM

91. FYI--I found a post on HuffPo about a fundraising site for the young hero:

"There is a fundraiser set up on indiegogo for Jarell Brooks to help him as he recovers and can't work and to aid him with tuition costs when he enters college in the fall."


Edited to provide full link to the fundraising page for him and also to include this comment from another site about an MLK quote that young Mr. Brooks posted on his Facebook page earlier this year:

http://www.indiegogo.com/jarellthehero

"Earlier this year, Jarell posted this MLK quote on his Facebook page: 'The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.' ”
From http://madamenoire.com/tag/jamie-rohr/

It sounds as though Mr. Brooks has given real thought to what sort of person he wishes to be.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:42 AM

100. Who is he? George Costanza?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:18 AM

104. For all the idiots here cutting this guy some slack, I give you the wisdom of Chris Rock

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #104)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:54 AM

107. Um, yeah, I love Chris Rock too

But I'm not so sure I'd use a comedian as an expert on panic.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #107)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:01 AM

108. "I take care of my kids. You're supposed to, ya dumb motherfucker!"

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #104)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:58 PM

201. Is it really necessary to call people names? n/t

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #104)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:07 AM

221. Calling DUers who disagree with you 'idiots'? That's against DU rules.

 

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:44 AM

109. I hold no judgement of him. I cannot imagine what it must have been like in that theater.

I think Mr. Rohrs will do enough judging of himself over the years. I feel for him and his family.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 07:13 AM

111. he panicked.

not the most courageous response. human, but kind of skanky. i wouldn't pile on him though because it sounds as if he's pretty upset with himself and he did come clean.
i have to say that none of us can KNOW what we would do in that circumstance. we'd all like to think that we'd be brave and protective of our loved ones, but until we've been faced with the actual reality we really don't know that.
what is your response?

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Response to barbtries (Reply #111)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:12 AM

126. That is the definition of cowardice.

cow·ard
    Show IPA

noun
1.
a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.


Whether I or others would also have been cowards is a different matter. It doesn't take away from the fact that he was a coward. Even worse, he totally abrogated his responsibility to protect a vulnerable, innocent baby who was incapable of protecting himself in any way.

Is your point that if I had reacted the same way, then that would make it okay and not cowardice? Not so. That would make TWO people who acted cowardly.

But I've been tested sort of a couple of times. I know that I have some sort of adrenalin response to things. Although a female and not particularly brave, I have an instinct to help, when I sense danger. I can't help it. It's a reaction. Altho I've never been tested with gunfire. Still, I don't think at my core that I am capable of leaving a baby behind in danger. I'm just not capable of it, I don't think. Just like the mother didn't leave her baby behind. Some people just cannot do that. And some people can.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #126)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:49 PM

167. i never said it was okay.

i don't think it was okay.
i have jumped into a pool after a rambunctious toddler and into the ocean after two of them. so i know i have the impetus to help. but in neither case was i threatened with danger myself.
i cannot imagine leaving my child behind the way he did. i don't know how many times i have imagined having the ability to put myself in my daughter's place so that i could die instead of her. i do not "excuse" what he did, i only meant to offer that we really don't know how we would react in that situation until we are faced with it.
what would you like to see happen here? should he be brought up on charges? i just don't need to kick a man when he's down. i am taking the position that he's being very hard on himself. it can't be easy to be put to the test and fail.
yes he displayed cowardice. it is one of the panoply of human reactions. it does not speak well of this young man, but was it criminal?

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Response to barbtries (Reply #167)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:44 PM

177. I haven't seen anyone suggesting he should be brought up on any charges.

But I am kind of amazed how press was trying to make it a heart warming romantic story. After all he proposed.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 07:14 AM

112. I have no idea what I would do under these circumstances,

and neither does anybody else. We are shaped by internal and external factors that we may not even be able to recognize.
I THINK I would do something sensible. I HOPE I would do something sensible. I don't ever want to find out. I don't want any of you to find out.

Many are whacking him because he abandoned his kid. Absolute chaos and fear can make people do unimaginable deeds. Some are perceived as heroes because they acted one way, and others are pilloried because they didn't. It has nothing to do with how good a father he is.

Read some more stories about what people have done under stress. There will be just as many that we call good and that we call bad.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #112)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:16 AM

127. That YOU may have done the same thing doesn't make it not cowardly.

That would mean that you, in addition to him, or me (if I had reacted that way), would all have acted cowardly.

What he did is the pure definition of cowardice. There's no denying it. There may be reasons for it. It may have been a gut reaction, as opposed to a thought-out plan to save himself. But all that doesn't matter. Cowardice is failing to have courage when faced with danger. He was a coward, pure and simple. If the account is true.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #127)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:42 AM

153. I may or may not have done the same thing.

In addition, panic can create an automatic response. You automatically react in a certain way because of a myriad of factors. You don't sit and plan to do what happened.

That may be a definition of cowardice to some. It's not mine. When I would question his actions are when his panic subsided. Then he does think and react to some plan that has formed in his mind.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #153)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:22 PM

173. I don't know why you need your own definition. Just read the one in the dictionary.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 08:34 AM

115. Until bullets are flying,no one knows how they will act.

This guy is not the villain here,just a mere human being acting under extreme danger.

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Response to Swede (Reply #115)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:51 AM

118. Some behave cowardly.

True nature revealed.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #118)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:20 AM

128. True. Some seem to think that if they had done the same thing, that makes it not cowardly.

All that does is mean that both people would have acted cowardly.

I like to think that I could never leave a vulnerable, innocent baby in danger, to run and save myself, especially my own baby. I don't think I have it in me to do that, on a basic, instinctual level. Still, I haven't been tested in a gunfire situation. But if I would do that, that would be a cowardly act. No gettin' around that. That is what "coward" means.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #128)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:47 AM

144. It is what coward means. Dropping a baby to save your own hide is disgusting.

And yes it is something that should be judged.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:51 AM

119. wow...the sheer number of people on this thread giving this guy a pass

with the bullshit phrase, 'no one knows how they will react' is staggering.

You might not know how one will react but you can damn sure see from his reaction that he is a coward and a complete piece of dogshit for leaving his family behind.

holy fuck...

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #119)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:24 AM

130. I thought the same thing. People think that if they had done that, that would make it okay.

Instead of what that would really mean: that even MORE people would have reacted cowardly.

To leave an innocent, vulnerable baby on a floor in the midst of gunfire, as well as the woman you supposedly love and her other child, to run like a rabbit and save yourself = that's exactly what a coward is.

If she marries him and they run into serious financial trouble, she should be prepared to make it on her own with her kids, because he won't be courageous in the face of such serious trouble. His concern will be for himself. If there's a house fire, she should have a plan to get her children out by herself; she now knows he will run for the hills, alone, to save himself, and leave his children to burn alive, if necessary. That is who he is, at his core. Doesn't matter why. That is his reaction to danger.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #130)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 07:44 PM

206. Who said it was okay? Who said leaving a baby in a crowded theatre full of gunfire was OKAY?

I sure as hell didn't. Saying the man was in a blind panic or saying the fight or flight instinct kicked in IS NOT THE SAME THING as saying what he did was OKAY.

The point we (those of us who aren't condemning him as a coward) are trying to make is: He reacted the way he reacted. His instincts took over, he was in a panic. That doesn't let him off the hook for endangering his child.

It means is we refuse to condemn him for reacting in a human way. Because most of the people "giving him a pass" actually know what it is like to be human. We can't and won't judge him for that.

As for the rest of what you wrote: I actually agree. Given that he doesn't do well under extreme (and by extreme I mean the most extreme) situations, the mom should either make sure he gets training in how to handle emergency situations or never leave the kids alone with him.

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #206)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 07:57 PM

207. It goes w/o saying he was in panic mode, just like everyone else. That's another way of trying

to excuse his cowardice.

He acted like a human....a cowardly human. That is a factual statement, not a judgment. The definition of coward is lack of courage in a dangerous situation. Well, that's him to a tee. A coward.

Not beating him down for it. It's just that others seem to want to not call it what it is. Calling something what it is is not being mean. It's being honest.

Other posts say "I refuse to judge hm." In other words, they won't even voice a negative opinion about throwing your crying baby on the floor to be stomped on or shot, so you can make a quiet getaway? If a person won't call that what it is, why bother responding to the OP at all?

Maybe others would have done that. But no others did that. And they were all in the same panic mode. The gf got seriously injured and still managed to get her baby and her other child out of there, AND hunt the bf down. Let's call that what it is: heroism. Courage in the face of danger, while in panic mode.

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #119)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:03 AM

149. I agree.

 

The guy was a piece of crap for leaving his fiancee, and more importantly, a helpless infant behind.

I don't know why others here are saying "Well, we don't know how we would act." We don't, but we do know how the guy reacted, and it was cowardly.

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #119)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:12 AM

151. Thank you! I totally agree!!

How ANY adult could toss an infant -- his own baby boy -- aside and run is beyond words. This guy not only ran out of the theater, he got in his vehicle and drove away. Then had the nerve to appear on TV cradling that precious infant he had abandoned to save his own sorry hide.

I don't give him a pass and hope the young woman wakes up because this is is the sort of guy who will cut and run when the going gets tough. PERIOD.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:03 AM

122. Kids that age at that movie at that time?

That seems almost as surprising to me as the guy fleeing in panic. If you can't afford a sitter, trade off with friends or wait for the video. Don't subject your young children to movies like that.

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Response to FreeJoe (Reply #122)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:11 PM

154. thunk

Sound of completely missing the bigger issue.

Mass murder AND Not having a baby-sitter and going to a PG movie.

Kind a like plowing through a child strewn bus stop and killing them all or striding the crosswalk when the light is red but nothing is coming.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #154)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 05:06 PM

203. NO

That was a valid point. Too bad you missed it.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:32 AM

135. Panic is a motherfucker.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #135)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:45 AM

142. I think you put it best Iggo. None of us know what we would do in a panic. I would sure hope

 

I would get my family out first. But you never know. I pray to god I will never have to find out either.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #142)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:49 AM

145. We might not know what somebody else would do, but we know what this guy did.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #145)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:08 PM

193. Yes your right. So what does that do? What is going to change for him? He already feels terrible

 

and everyone jumping on him isn't going to change the facts. I would say to people leave it alone so he and his wife can get past it. Calling him a chicken does nothing.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #193)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:33 PM

200. That woman isn't married to him yet.

And are you saying that nothing should be discussed if it already happened and discussing it won't change the facts?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #200)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 06:34 PM

204. No discuss all you want. I don't care. All am saying it isn't going to change what happened.

 

By the why I guess you know he did ask her to marry him. I forgot that.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:50 AM

146. Ya know what is REALLY disgusting?

Some of the responses of the hindsight heroes in this thread. As if they actually know what "they would have done" in the same situation. Big, tough talk is cheap, just like those that do it the loudest.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #146)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:52 AM

147. Well, yes, until one is in danger, one is not going to find if he or she has courage or not.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #147)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:11 AM

150. Precisely.

Last edited Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Panic affects each person differently. Fight or flight is the most basic of human responses to a deadly confrontation. Not asingle one of us that wasn't there, can say with any degree of certainty, what we would have done. It's easy and pretty damn crappy to sit at a keyboard and run off at the mouth about "how much courage we would have had, if it were me."

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #150)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:20 AM

152. yes, fight or flight is the most basic of human responses but

I (along with most parents) could never have abandoned my baby. It just wouldn't happen, no matter what the circumstances.

This guy tossed his baby aside, fled from the theater and DROVE AWAY! He especially deserving of scorn since hours later he was all over the TV cradling that very infant. What a POS

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Response to Carolina (Reply #152)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:20 PM

164. Were you there?

Have you ever been faced with a hail of deadly gunfire in a darkened teargas filled killroom with hundreds of others trying to get the hell out of there through a VERY limited number of exits. We all would like to believe that we wouldn't react as this guy did. But the reality is, until you are facing the real world possibility of dying right there and then, you have no way of knowing what you might do. I'm not defending his actions, by any means, but if being under unthinkable duress causing someone to act in an inappropriate manner has any validity at all, it has to apply here.

Keyboard tough is easy. Real world?

Not so much.

And one more thing that I find disgusting. This guy didn't shoot ANYONE, but that doesn't seem to stop the self-righteous, hindsighters from painting a VICTIM as the bad guy. Shame on you.

POS, indeed.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #164)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:21 PM

171. His was holding his infant. He put the infant down and escaped.

And a stranger got shot trying to help his girlfriend and kids.
I am not sure what do you expect people to think about that?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #171)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:44 PM

185. I expect people to...

.. not be laying unneeded guilt trips on victims that panic when they are staring death in the eye. But I guess that's something you are too brave and good to understand.

meh.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #185)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:01 PM

192. Did ANYONE else at the theatere throw down their babies to be trompled on, and run for the hills?

Of course not. But even if 20 other people had done that, they ALL would have acted cowardly. It doesn't make it brave or not cowardly if others do it, too.

Doesn't matter why he did it. All that matters is that at his core, he is a coward, pure and simple. He threw down a crying baby because, as he put it, he was afraid the crying would draw the attention of the shooter to himself, so he put the baby down on the ground (to be shot or trompled to death), so he could more easily run to save himself. That is how a coward acts.

Thank goodness most people aren't that cowardly, when faced with danger....as we saw in the reactions by the others in the theater and in other life threatening situations. There are heroes among us. This guy isn't one of 'em. Not too many people would be able to put a baby in death's way to save his/her own skin.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #192)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:31 PM

199. Another...

... keyboard warrior passes judgment on someone put into a situation they themselves will likely ( & hopefully) never face.


You're compassion for victims overwhelms me.


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Response to 99Forever (Reply #164)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:03 AM

224. no, but I have had a baby and

certainly when my son was a baby, I know I would never have abandoned him in any circumstances.

Sure, I am thankful that I never faced a hail of bullets, but I put my child's needs ahead of my own comfort, convenience and fun until he was a grown man. I know in my gut and heart, that in a life or death situation, I surely could not have deserted him. Perhaps it's maternal instinct

But shame on you, too for being such an aopologist for this guy. He ran, no, DROVE away and then had the nerve to appear all over the airwaves cradling the same baby he'd cast aside to save his own sorry hide. If you can excuse that, then you must be of similar ilk!!!

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Response to Carolina (Reply #224)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 10:31 AM

226. Says it all:

"I never faced a hail of bullets,.."

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #146)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:40 PM

183. Cowardice: Failing to have courage in a dangerous situation. If a lot of people acted that way...

they would all be cowards. The definition doesn't change, depending on how many people do it.

No doubt about it: To run for your life and put an innocent, vulnerable baby on the ground to be shot or stomped on, is a cowardly act. Even if you would have done it, too. Even if I would've done it. Even if "she" would've done it.

I don't know exactly how I would have behaved. But I know this: At my core, in my heart of hearts...I don't have it in me to do that to a baby. Or even to my dog. But if I had acted that way, it still would have been cowardly. The fact that I did it, doesn't make it okay that he did it, too.

To put an innocent baby on the ground to be stompeded on or shot...now THAT is what's disgusting. I call it for what it is: cowardice.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #183)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:48 PM

188. You say...

... facing all the danger of sitting in front of your monitor typing into your keyboard.

meh.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #188)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:10 AM

222. +100,000. I'd hope that I don't panic when shit happens.

 

But none of us can say that we won't until it does happen. And we all better pray it doesn't.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #146)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:34 PM

218. They are trying to convince themselves this would never happen to them

Or that they would never do this themselves. The louder they condemn this guy, the more they can try to feel sure they would never do the same thing.

Although I do have a hard time with putting the baby down. I'm not even a mother, but if I had a baby, the first thing I'd do is run with that baby. That's why I'd feel justified in just running from my fiancé.

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Response to treestar (Reply #218)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:38 PM

229. Well, if we are going with psychoanalysis. And what would be reasons for defending the guy?

Thinking they are are going to behave the same way?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #229)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:07 PM

236. A realization that humans are flawed

And we all are - most of us get to live a life without facing such a thing as this, but we like to think we'd do the most heroic thing. Yet we really can't know. But we get to pass judgment on this guy. Problem is we never faced what he faced. Most of us never will.

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Response to treestar (Reply #236)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:35 AM

240. In my view, "the most heroic" thing would be go wrestle the gunman, or start saving strangers.

I wouldn't describe saving his own infant as "the most heroic thing." Most people expect parents to do that.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #240)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:39 AM

244. You're moving a goal post

All I'm saying is, we have no idea what we will do and hopefully never have to know. We're passing judgment on someone else, so we can at least acknowledge we don't know if we are any better than he is.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:18 PM

155. It's called panic - and it's probably driven by Adrenalin.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:07 PM

163. um. two kids under 5 yo in a theatre after midnight? or did we already have that flame-fest?

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Response to KG (Reply #163)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:45 PM

166. Sounds like both parents make poor decisions.

poor kids.

I can't think of one good reason to bring an infant and toddler to a movie theater after midnight.

Most people in that situation would wait for it OnDemand.

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Response to eilen (Reply #166)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:49 PM

169. or get a baby-sitter if they really wanted to see the movie now.

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Response to eilen (Reply #166)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:45 PM

178. The mother did manage to save both her kids, while getting wounded.

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Response to eilen (Reply #166)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:48 PM

179. Their mother appears to be quite brave. She didn't run out of the theater without her children.

She managed to save both of them and got shot in the process. So the kids are lucky they have her.

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Response to KG (Reply #163)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:49 PM

168. that was exactly my question.

Incredibly poor parenting.

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Response to KG (Reply #163)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:51 PM

231. yeah, one cable news has so many comments about the approprietness of two babies

at a late night Batman movie that they had a small segment about it. the interviewed the mom.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 01:55 PM

170. Brave Sir Robin...

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:24 PM

174. " felt remorse and a bit of self-loathing " leave him alone. is my answer. i am sorry we have the

net that allows these world wide attacks. they are ugly.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #174)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:28 PM

181. Again, if someone wants to be left alone, it's not a good idea to go on TV and give interviews.

I am just saying.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #181)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:42 PM

184. i dont feel the need.... to beat him up. i have never been much into the bullying

mentality.

that is what this feels like, to me.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #184)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 03:48 PM

189. To call out something for what it is, is not bullying. Bullying is picking on an innocent victim...

for bullying's sake.

But to say his actions were cowardly is not bullying. It's merely stating a fact. If one is going to have any reaction, it should be an honest one. No one is saying he should be charged with a crime.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #184)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:01 PM

191. If you go on TV and give interviews, you should expect that people will discuss it.

Especially in comparison with other stories from the same theater shooting, where people behaved heroically, including a 13 year old girl.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #184)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:41 AM

241. This is an opportunity for everyone who HASN'T been in that situation to feel self-righteous.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #241)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:22 AM

245. personally, i find it disgusting and endemic of who we have become

with a whole lot of justification.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:31 PM

175. At least he turned back

Crazy story, nonetheless.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #175)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 02:42 PM

176. He drove away and she had to call him before he turned back.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:11 PM

194. Won't judge

I know that most likely I will react by training... (hit the deck HARD) and find cover... (The later in a theater, not easy)

But will not judge what people will do in a situation like this.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #194)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:58 PM

238. +1 (nt)

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 06:54 PM

205. So, in who's interest is it to take a victim...

... of the latest MASS MURDERING SHOOTING and demonize him?

What and who aren't you focusing on if you're beating the crap out of some poor guy that had a bad panic reaction in an untenable situation? Just who do you people think made sure this "story" surfaced?

Good fucking grief people. You want to see some COWARDS? Go to Washington DC and 50 statehouses across this Nation and talk to the fucking poultry there that lets this shit happen over and over and over again, and ask them what the fuck they are going to do about it.

Nah, that wouldn't be as easy as brow beating some poor tortured overwhelmed soul, anonymously on the internet, would it?

Now I remember why I like my dogs do much better than most people.


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Response to 99Forever (Reply #205)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 08:29 PM

209. the Guy is a MEdia Whore which is the problem , and the fake crying all the time

if he would have just shut up or just thanked the guy who did help his girlfriend and kids it would be left at that.

but he is changing the story around to make it seem like what he did wasn't too bad and fake crying all the time.

he made no mention of the guy who actually did put his life in danger to help the girlfirend and kids on piers morgan .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #209)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:40 PM

219. Yeah right.

Whateveryousay.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 08:00 PM

208. Sorry but this dude is a total punk.

 

Leave your infant? Just put him down and leave? And your other child? And your wife? This is totally craven behavior. What woman would stay with this guy? The question of whether or not he'd protect his family is clearly answered. No. Not just no but fuck no. And not even just fuck no, this is "I dont give a fuck about anyone but myself" kind of deriliction of duty. At the very least you keep them together and get on top of them, cover them with your body.

He's not the villain here, he didn't shoot up the place but he is a stone coward and no one likes a coward. He'll never live this down.

I see a divorce and change of residence in his future.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 08:53 PM

211. I hope that his fiancee is now his former fiancee.

The guy is worthless. To leave her and his children was bad enough, but then he drove away?????????

Lousy coward doesn't deserve either of the three.

In case some think that I'm being harsh, I was in the North Tower on 9/11. I was on the next to last PATH train that made it to the WTC. I saw enough people die that day and thought I was going to die too when the 2nd plane crashed into the South Tower literally across the street from where I was walking. Many acts of selflessness took place that morning.

So I have no sympathy for some jerk who leaves his family behind.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #211)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:29 PM

214. He actually proposed to her after the shooting. And she accepted.

So it appears she intends to marry him.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #214)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 10:19 PM

215. Wow

Just wow.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #214)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:19 PM

216. Then she's a fool.

He proved that in a real emergency she and their kids can't count on him.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:12 PM

212. .

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 12:01 AM

220. I know how I'd likely react

And shocking, it has none with being a "hero" or anything like that. Two reasons.

1.- Training. The natural flight or fight means leaving if possible. Training taught me to well hit the ground, asses, look for safe egress if tat exists, cover if that exists / help others once the shooting stops. Chief priority, stay unhurt, so can help others This lasted 90 seconds.

2.- I have already been in situations where training, not heroics, took over. While lookie looks were trying to watch a hot stop, for example, I pulled sister and friend behind cover...only one that did that, but had very little to do with being a hero, and all to do with training.

Since we're having way too many of these any longer, I am assessing every location I regularly visit for cover, egress and all that. Nope, not heroics, training.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #220)

Sun Jul 29, 2012, 10:27 AM

225. I understand.

Although I haven't had any training, since 9/11 I look for every exit in a public place. On airplanes I count how many rows to the exit doors in front and behind me. I don't make a fuzz over it, just a mental note.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:18 AM

239. I dub him 'Sir Robin'

Brave sir robin ran away.

Bravely ran away away.

When danger reared it's ugly head

He bravely turned his tail and fled.

Yes brave sir robin turned about

And gallantly he chickened out.

****bravely**** taking to his feet

He beat a very brave retreat.

Bravest of the braaaave sir robin!

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